Swindon MPs welcome news of EU referendum if Tories win election

This Is Wiltshire: David Cameron David Cameron

SWINDON’S MPs have welcomed yesterday’s announcement by David Cameron that the British people will have a say on the EU as he pledged an in/out referendum if the Conservatives win the next election.

In a long-awaited speech, the prime minister said he wanted to renegotiate the UK’s relationship with the EU and then give people the “simple choice” between staying in under those new terms, or leaving the EU.

South Swindon MP Robert Buckland is leading national calls for the UK to remain within the EU and believes staying in is important, especially in Swindon, to maintain jobs and economic growth.

Mr Buckland, who is also secretary of the Tories’ influential 1922 Committee of MPs, helped to draft a letter to David Cameron, signed by more than 25 MPs, which says quitting would cause massive damage to Britain, economically and diplomatically.

Reacting to the announcement of the referendum, Mr Buckland said: “I am very pleased that the PM made a positive commitment to our continued membership of the EU.

“Now that everyone will be given a say if the Conservatives win the next election, the time is right to make the case for our continued involvement, which is what I will campaign for. Over 25 MPs signed the letter.”

Justin Tomlinson, the North Swindon MP, also agreed a referendum was a good idea, but refused to sign Mr Buckland’s letter, saying he only represents a tiny minority of people – who are not in tune with public opinion.

He said: “As one of 81 Conservative MPs who voted for the referendum in 2011, I’m absolutely delighted that we have finally secured the green light to let the public have their say.

“It’s absolutely crucial that we renegotiate hard with Europe to put Britain’s interests first, and if Europe fails to respond then I have no doubt the British public would want to opt out.”

Paul Ormond, the general manager for corporate affairs at Honda UK, the sales arm of Honda, confirmed that the Japanese carmaker was committed to the plant at South Marston, regardless of the outcome of any referendum.

He said: “It’s not the case if it goes one way or another, Honda will decide to take a certain course of action. We will manage our business regardless of what’s decided by the British Government and British people.

“Clearly the whole automotive industry, including Honda, is exporting to Europe, we know we’re having tough times at the moment but we expect to play an active constructive role within Europe in terms of selling our cars and improving the export numbers.

“And we look forward to playing an active role in exporting cars from Swindon to Europe regardless of what befalls the whole Europe debate.”

Comments (69)

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10:25am Thu 24 Jan 13

benzss says...

Two reasons for this:

1) To pacify gullible backbenchers (no Bucklands mentioned)
2) To try to out-manouevre UKIP

This vote will never happen.
Two reasons for this: 1) To pacify gullible backbenchers (no Bucklands mentioned) 2) To try to out-manouevre UKIP This vote will never happen. benzss
  • Score: 0

10:28am Thu 24 Jan 13

adsinibiza says...

Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable.

Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years!
Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years! adsinibiza
  • Score: 0

10:30am Thu 24 Jan 13

The Real Librarian says...

QUOTE
Mr Buckland, who is also secretary of the Tories’ influential 1922 Committee of MPs, helped to draft a letter to David Cameron, signed by more than 25 MPs, which says quitting would cause massive damage to Britain, economically and diplomatically
UNQUOTE

More than 25 MP's?

So, 26 MP's then?

Given that the Tories have 296 MP's, this is less than impressive.


The other 270 didn't want to sign clearly.
QUOTE Mr Buckland, who is also secretary of the Tories’ influential 1922 Committee of MPs, helped to draft a letter to David Cameron, signed by more than 25 MPs, which says quitting would cause massive damage to Britain, economically and diplomatically UNQUOTE More than 25 MP's? So, 26 MP's then? Given that the Tories have 296 MP's, this is less than impressive. The other 270 didn't want to sign clearly. The Real Librarian
  • Score: 0

10:31am Thu 24 Jan 13

benzss says...

adsinibiza wrote:
Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years!
Quite.

Did Cameron not say the very same thing about a referendum for Scotland's independence?

Not that a politician would care about hypocrisy, of course.
[quote][p][bold]adsinibiza[/bold] wrote: Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years![/p][/quote]Quite. Did Cameron not say the very same thing about a referendum for Scotland's independence? Not that a politician would care about hypocrisy, of course. benzss
  • Score: 0

10:35am Thu 24 Jan 13

RichardR1 says...

benzss I totally agree with your analysis. It was also nice to read that Honda have nailed once and for all the often claimed statement they would leave if we left the EU.

There will be huge pressure to hold a referendum at the same time as the EU vote next year.

Rob Buckland may be Secretary of the back bench committee but he clearly isn't representing the back benchers majority view.
benzss I totally agree with your analysis. It was also nice to read that Honda have nailed once and for all the often claimed statement they would leave if we left the EU. There will be huge pressure to hold a referendum at the same time as the EU vote next year. Rob Buckland may be Secretary of the back bench committee but he clearly isn't representing the back benchers majority view. RichardR1
  • Score: 0

10:36am Thu 24 Jan 13

The Real Librarian says...

adsinibiza wrote:
Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years!
There won't be a referendum. The wrong side might win. As far as the ruling elite are concerned it would be like giving a child a lighter and letting them go play in a fireworks factory.

The key phrase here is "the ruling elite."

These are the people who tried to take us in to the EEC in 1966 without asking our opinion or permission.

These are the people who took us in to the EEC in 1973 without asking our opinion or permission.

These are the people who lied their bottoms off in 1975 to avoid us voting to leave.

These are the people who took us in to the EU in 1991 without asking our opinion or permission.

These are the people who would have got us to join the Euro in 1994 without asking our opinion or permission.
and they would have succeeded if it wasn't for Gordon Brown's contempt for Tony Blair.

These people don't like us.
These people don't care about us.
These people aren't interested in our opinion.
These people don't want us having a say.

The EU is able to get on with bossing us about, whoever we vote for at a national level.

We won't get a chance to vote ourselves out.

Even if, by a long shot, we did get a vote and voted out, they would ignore the result and make us do it again and again until we gave the right result.

Just like France.

Just like Ireland.
[quote][p][bold]adsinibiza[/bold] wrote: Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years![/p][/quote]There won't be a referendum. The wrong side might win. As far as the ruling elite are concerned it would be like giving a child a lighter and letting them go play in a fireworks factory. The key phrase here is "the ruling elite." These are the people who tried to take us in to the EEC in 1966 without asking our opinion or permission. These are the people who took us in to the EEC in 1973 without asking our opinion or permission. These are the people who lied their bottoms off in 1975 to avoid us voting to leave. These are the people who took us in to the EU in 1991 without asking our opinion or permission. These are the people who would have got us to join the Euro in 1994 without asking our opinion or permission. and they would have succeeded if it wasn't for Gordon Brown's contempt for Tony Blair. These people don't like us. These people don't care about us. These people aren't interested in our opinion. These people don't want us having a say. The EU is able to get on with bossing us about, whoever we vote for at a national level. We won't get a chance to vote ourselves out. Even if, by a long shot, we did get a vote and voted out, they would ignore the result and make us do it again and again until we gave the right result. Just like France. Just like Ireland. The Real Librarian
  • Score: 0

10:41am Thu 24 Jan 13

RichardR1 says...

TRL excellent analysis.
TRL excellent analysis. RichardR1
  • Score: 0

10:42am Thu 24 Jan 13

A.Baron-Cohen says...

Under this Coalition, there has been several consultations to reform the voting system and policing.
There will be a Scotland Independence vote next year, so I welcome a vote on our EU membership.
However, the real issues are still not being tackled: Economic Growth, Public debt, youth unemployment, Housing crisis, Reform of the Banking system, Newspapers, Welfare etc....
I am grateful to be able to cast my vote via referendum and elections, it is great for British Democracy, however I would prefer this Government and MP to focus on issues closer to home.
Under this Coalition, there has been several consultations to reform the voting system and policing. There will be a Scotland Independence vote next year, so I welcome a vote on our EU membership. However, the real issues are still not being tackled: Economic Growth, Public debt, youth unemployment, Housing crisis, Reform of the Banking system, Newspapers, Welfare etc.... I am grateful to be able to cast my vote via referendum and elections, it is great for British Democracy, however I would prefer this Government and MP to focus on issues closer to home. A.Baron-Cohen
  • Score: 0

10:58am Thu 24 Jan 13

Robh says...

I voted no to the EEC because I believe they need us more than we need them. At the time how could the EEC work with the major financial centre, the stock exchange in th UK.

I still believe they need us more than we need them because we have become limited to seeing Europe as our major market instead of looking global. We have plenty to offer the world if we can shake off this reliance on Europe and the associated expense. We should be making our own laws to suit us.
I voted no to the EEC because I believe they need us more than we need them. At the time how could the EEC work with the major financial centre, the stock exchange in th UK. I still believe they need us more than we need them because we have become limited to seeing Europe as our major market instead of looking global. We have plenty to offer the world if we can shake off this reliance on Europe and the associated expense. We should be making our own laws to suit us. Robh
  • Score: 0

11:00am Thu 24 Jan 13

RichardR1 says...

Wellif anyone wanted a reason to vote no to Britain staying in then watching the arrogant, supersilious, rude Campaign to Stay in spokesperson on BBC news.

He didn't debate with Tim Akers of the Britain Out Campaign he was simply just rude. He had no arguement merely the EU was big so we should stay in, because the US wanted us too.
Wellif anyone wanted a reason to vote no to Britain staying in then watching the arrogant, supersilious, rude Campaign to Stay in spokesperson on BBC news. He didn't debate with Tim Akers of the Britain Out Campaign he was simply just rude. He had no arguement merely the EU was big so we should stay in, because the US wanted us too. RichardR1
  • Score: 0

11:10am Thu 24 Jan 13

StillPav says...

adsinibiza wrote:
Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years!
Is the uncertainly over Britain's membership of the EU any worse than the uncertainly over the future of the Euro?
[quote][p][bold]adsinibiza[/bold] wrote: Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years![/p][/quote]Is the uncertainly over Britain's membership of the EU any worse than the uncertainly over the future of the Euro? StillPav
  • Score: 0

11:34am Thu 24 Jan 13

benzss says...

Robh wrote:
I voted no to the EEC because I believe they need us more than we need them. At the time how could the EEC work with the major financial centre, the stock exchange in th UK. I still believe they need us more than we need them because we have become limited to seeing Europe as our major market instead of looking global. We have plenty to offer the world if we can shake off this reliance on Europe and the associated expense. We should be making our own laws to suit us.
The EEC is not, I think, a bad idea. Or, at least, in principle it is a good idea to have a blanket trade agreement with many countries who sign up to common standards and arbitrators. In terms of outcomes, this makes perfect sense... it is, after all, much easier to trade with other countries if you have a shared agreement on corporation tax liability, for example.

The problem the EU has is it's evolved far beyond that. The EU - or its predecessors - was created for two reasons... one is to stop Germany invading France again (and vice-versa), and the other to promote trade between nations (which in practice inhibits warlike tendencies). Admirable goals, sure, and it's a shame we can't keep the EEC and not have the EU.

The writing is on the wall though. As Laurent Fabius said, these days "you can't do Europe a la carte". Alas.
[quote][p][bold]Robh[/bold] wrote: I voted no to the EEC because I believe they need us more than we need them. At the time how could the EEC work with the major financial centre, the stock exchange in th UK. I still believe they need us more than we need them because we have become limited to seeing Europe as our major market instead of looking global. We have plenty to offer the world if we can shake off this reliance on Europe and the associated expense. We should be making our own laws to suit us.[/p][/quote]The EEC is not, I think, a bad idea. Or, at least, in principle it is a good idea to have a blanket trade agreement with many countries who sign up to common standards and arbitrators. In terms of outcomes, this makes perfect sense... it is, after all, much easier to trade with other countries if you have a shared agreement on corporation tax liability, for example. The problem the EU has is it's evolved far beyond that. The EU - or its predecessors - was created for two reasons... one is to stop Germany invading France again (and vice-versa), and the other to promote trade between nations (which in practice inhibits warlike tendencies). Admirable goals, sure, and it's a shame we can't keep the EEC and not have the EU. The writing is on the wall though. As Laurent Fabius said, these days "you can't do Europe a la carte". Alas. benzss
  • Score: 0

11:49am Thu 24 Jan 13

Always Grumpy says...

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Under this Coalition, there has been several consultations to reform the voting system and policing.
There will be a Scotland Independence vote next year, so I welcome a vote on our EU membership.
However, the real issues are still not being tackled: Economic Growth, Public debt, youth unemployment, Housing crisis, Reform of the Banking system, Newspapers, Welfare etc....
I am grateful to be able to cast my vote via referendum and elections, it is great for British Democracy, however I would prefer this Government and MP to focus on issues closer to home.
Yes, such as out of control immigration.
[quote][p][bold]A.Baron-Cohen[/bold] wrote: Under this Coalition, there has been several consultations to reform the voting system and policing. There will be a Scotland Independence vote next year, so I welcome a vote on our EU membership. However, the real issues are still not being tackled: Economic Growth, Public debt, youth unemployment, Housing crisis, Reform of the Banking system, Newspapers, Welfare etc.... I am grateful to be able to cast my vote via referendum and elections, it is great for British Democracy, however I would prefer this Government and MP to focus on issues closer to home.[/p][/quote]Yes, such as out of control immigration. Always Grumpy
  • Score: 0

11:50am Thu 24 Jan 13

RichardR1 says...

benzss Nato ensured European piece not the EU in fact for 40 years France wasn't even apermanent member because DeGaulle hated Britain, and it joining the EEC.

It's interesting you mentioned Corporation Tax because Cameron in a speech in Davos this morning was boasting that low taxes attracts inward investment and we have the lowest CT in the G7, and would continue to ensure we kept it that way, so no tax harmonisation.

Frankly Cameron is running out of reasons as to why he still reckons we are better off in.
benzss Nato ensured European piece not the EU in fact for 40 years France wasn't even apermanent member because DeGaulle hated Britain, and it joining the EEC. It's interesting you mentioned Corporation Tax because Cameron in a speech in Davos this morning was boasting that low taxes attracts inward investment and we have the lowest CT in the G7, and would continue to ensure we kept it that way, so no tax harmonisation. Frankly Cameron is running out of reasons as to why he still reckons we are better off in. RichardR1
  • Score: 0

11:52am Thu 24 Jan 13

RichardR1 says...

Sorry 'peace'
Sorry 'peace' RichardR1
  • Score: 0

11:58am Thu 24 Jan 13

benzss says...

RichardR1 wrote:
benzss Nato ensured European piece not the EU in fact for 40 years France wasn't even apermanent member because DeGaulle hated Britain, and it joining the EEC. It's interesting you mentioned Corporation Tax because Cameron in a speech in Davos this morning was boasting that low taxes attracts inward investment and we have the lowest CT in the G7, and would continue to ensure we kept it that way, so no tax harmonisation. Frankly Cameron is running out of reasons as to why he still reckons we are better off in.
Hm, that's not as I know it; France was a founding member and a driving force behind a 'united Europe', implicitly to forestall any kind of western/central European war. NATO was created in the main to counter the threat from beyond the Iron Curtain...

Tax rates themselves are not harmonised but who taxes whom and where is harmonised. This is the main complaint behind the likes of Amazon being based in Luxembourg and trading all over Europe. In essence, the EEC agrees that a company can be based anywhere in the EU and trade anywhere else while only being taxed once (ex. VAT, NI, etc).
[quote][p][bold]RichardR1[/bold] wrote: benzss Nato ensured European piece not the EU in fact for 40 years France wasn't even apermanent member because DeGaulle hated Britain, and it joining the EEC. It's interesting you mentioned Corporation Tax because Cameron in a speech in Davos this morning was boasting that low taxes attracts inward investment and we have the lowest CT in the G7, and would continue to ensure we kept it that way, so no tax harmonisation. Frankly Cameron is running out of reasons as to why he still reckons we are better off in.[/p][/quote]Hm, that's not as I know it; France was a founding member and a driving force behind a 'united Europe', implicitly to forestall any kind of western/central European war. NATO was created in the main to counter the threat from beyond the Iron Curtain... Tax rates themselves are not harmonised but who taxes whom and where is harmonised. This is the main complaint behind the likes of Amazon being based in Luxembourg and trading all over Europe. In essence, the EEC agrees that a company can be based anywhere in the EU and trade anywhere else while only being taxed once (ex. VAT, NI, etc). benzss
  • Score: 0

12:02pm Thu 24 Jan 13

A.Baron-Cohen says...

RichardR1 wrote:
benzss Nato ensured European piece not the EU in fact for 40 years France wasn't even apermanent member because DeGaulle hated Britain, and it joining the EEC.

It's interesting you mentioned Corporation Tax because Cameron in a speech in Davos this morning was boasting that low taxes attracts inward investment and we have the lowest CT in the G7, and would continue to ensure we kept it that way, so no tax harmonisation.

Frankly Cameron is running out of reasons as to why he still reckons we are better off in.
Well one of the reason might be that 20% of all EU investments were made in the UK.
It is yet to be demonstrated how this could be increased by leaving the EU.......
[quote][p][bold]RichardR1[/bold] wrote: benzss Nato ensured European piece not the EU in fact for 40 years France wasn't even apermanent member because DeGaulle hated Britain, and it joining the EEC. It's interesting you mentioned Corporation Tax because Cameron in a speech in Davos this morning was boasting that low taxes attracts inward investment and we have the lowest CT in the G7, and would continue to ensure we kept it that way, so no tax harmonisation. Frankly Cameron is running out of reasons as to why he still reckons we are better off in.[/p][/quote]Well one of the reason might be that 20% of all EU investments were made in the UK. It is yet to be demonstrated how this could be increased by leaving the EU....... A.Baron-Cohen
  • Score: 0

12:37pm Thu 24 Jan 13

Even Angrier Monkey says...

I'm all for a EU common market, and free trade between member states. Its a great idea.
.
What isnt a great idea is the creeping monetary and political union of nations, much of which has been achieved by undemocratic means. I simply dont see what good this achieves and in reality will be impossible to implement successfully due to langauage and cultural differences.
I'm all for a EU common market, and free trade between member states. Its a great idea. . What isnt a great idea is the creeping monetary and political union of nations, much of which has been achieved by undemocratic means. I simply dont see what good this achieves and in reality will be impossible to implement successfully due to langauage and cultural differences. Even Angrier Monkey
  • Score: 0

12:38pm Thu 24 Jan 13

Tim Newroman says...

benzss wrote:
Two reasons for this:

1) To pacify gullible backbenchers (no Bucklands mentioned)
2) To try to out-manouevre UKIP

This vote will never happen.
Agreed, but the main reason this will not happen is because David Cameron will not win the next general election.

Labour will win in 2015. It doesn't really matter who their leader is, but assuming it's still Ed Miliband, it is 100% assured that there will be no EU referendum whatsoever.

In fact, Cameron's speech had very little to do with the EU at all. It was about drawing up a battleline that he believes will give him the only possible hope of beating Labour. He wants to make the next election come down to: do you want to leave the EU or not? If you do, you have to vote Tory. If you don't, you have to vote Labour.

It's a fairly clever, if obvious, move, but the motivation for it has nothing to do with the EU.
[quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: Two reasons for this: 1) To pacify gullible backbenchers (no Bucklands mentioned) 2) To try to out-manouevre UKIP This vote will never happen.[/p][/quote]Agreed, but the main reason this will not happen is because David Cameron will not win the next general election. [p] Labour will win in 2015. It doesn't really matter who their leader is, but assuming it's still Ed Miliband, it is 100% assured that there will be no EU referendum whatsoever. [p] In fact, Cameron's speech had very little to do with the EU at all. It was about drawing up a battleline that he believes will give him the only possible hope of beating Labour. He wants to make the next election come down to: do you want to leave the EU or not? If you do, you have to vote Tory. If you don't, you have to vote Labour. [p] It's a fairly clever, if obvious, move, but the motivation for it has nothing to do with the EU. Tim Newroman
  • Score: 0

12:50pm Thu 24 Jan 13

LordAshOfTheBrake says...

Common market and trading arangements, yes. That is what was originally agreed up on.

Federal/United States of Europe, NO WAY.

There appears to be only one country in Euro Zone which is in control and everyone else is dancing their tune. Even France has gone quiet since Sarkozy left office.

When your driving round in your Audi's, BMW's and Mercedes remember which economy your propping up to allow their continued control of Europe.
Common market and trading arangements, yes. That is what was originally agreed up on. Federal/United States of Europe, NO WAY. There appears to be only one country in Euro Zone which is in control and everyone else is dancing their tune. Even France has gone quiet since Sarkozy left office. When your driving round in your Audi's, BMW's and Mercedes remember which economy your propping up to allow their continued control of Europe. LordAshOfTheBrake
  • Score: 0

12:53pm Thu 24 Jan 13

Davey Gravey says...

They will get ousted in the next election so it won't happen. Labour will trounce them mainly due to the lap dog lib dems.
They will get ousted in the next election so it won't happen. Labour will trounce them mainly due to the lap dog lib dems. Davey Gravey
  • Score: 0

12:59pm Thu 24 Jan 13

Tim Newroman says...

Davey Gravey wrote:
They will get ousted in the next election so it won't happen. Labour will trounce them mainly due to the lap dog lib dems.
I agree with your first sentence. The second, not so much. Sure, the LibDems are hopeless - and have blocked the Tories doing anything worthwhile, but the blame lies with Cameron and the Tories.

Much as I detest Gordon Brown, at least he knew he only had two years in which to do what he wanted. He didn't listen to his party, parliament or the British people. I disagree with almost everything he did, but at least he had the guts to destroy the country his way, and without asking for permission.
[quote][p][bold]Davey Gravey[/bold] wrote: They will get ousted in the next election so it won't happen. Labour will trounce them mainly due to the lap dog lib dems.[/p][/quote]I agree with your first sentence. The second, not so much. Sure, the LibDems are hopeless - and have blocked the Tories doing anything worthwhile, but the blame lies with Cameron and the Tories. [p] Much as I detest Gordon Brown, at least he knew he only had two years in which to do what he wanted. He didn't listen to his party, parliament or the British people. I disagree with almost everything he did, but at least he had the guts to destroy the country his way, and without asking for permission. Tim Newroman
  • Score: 0

1:43pm Thu 24 Jan 13

house on the hill says...

""LordAshOfTheBrake says...
12:50pm Thu 24 Jan 13

Common market and trading arangements, yes. That is what was originally agreed up on.

Federal/United States of Europe, NO WAY.

There appears to be only one country in Euro Zone which is in control and everyone else is dancing their tune. Even France has gone quiet since Sarkozy left office.

When your driving round in your Audi's, BMW's and Mercedes remember which economy your propping up to allow their continued control of Europe.”"""

Completely agree with the first three points. As to the last point, it isnt always the countries that the companies are based in that make the goods. After all Hondas are made here (not so many now but thats their fault for not keeing up with the changing markets rather than ours) as are Nissans, that do contribute to our economy. I read somewhere that Toyota employ more people in the USA than Apple do, so trying to buy "local" isnt as easy as you might think.

How many voters do you think really understand the implications of in or out. Most would vote on political lines, or on a small reason rather than looking at the bigger picture or just being racist!

Agree with earlier poster that all this does is breed uncertainty at a time when firm decisions and structure needs to be made, so that has done more harm than good in the short term.
""LordAshOfTheBrake says... 12:50pm Thu 24 Jan 13 Common market and trading arangements, yes. That is what was originally agreed up on. Federal/United States of Europe, NO WAY. There appears to be only one country in Euro Zone which is in control and everyone else is dancing their tune. Even France has gone quiet since Sarkozy left office. When your driving round in your Audi's, BMW's and Mercedes remember which economy your propping up to allow their continued control of Europe.”""" Completely agree with the first three points. As to the last point, it isnt always the countries that the companies are based in that make the goods. After all Hondas are made here (not so many now but thats their fault for not keeing up with the changing markets rather than ours) as are Nissans, that do contribute to our economy. I read somewhere that Toyota employ more people in the USA than Apple do, so trying to buy "local" isnt as easy as you might think. How many voters do you think really understand the implications of in or out. Most would vote on political lines, or on a small reason rather than looking at the bigger picture or just being racist! Agree with earlier poster that all this does is breed uncertainty at a time when firm decisions and structure needs to be made, so that has done more harm than good in the short term. house on the hill
  • Score: 0

1:48pm Thu 24 Jan 13

RichardR1 says...

We will have another hung Parliament and if the unlikely occurs and the Lib-Dems gets seats then they will probably do a deal with Labour, such is the nature of the fence sitters.

We can only hope that UKIP get a few seats and then we may well get a referendum, without the fallacious conditions Cameron will invent.
We will have another hung Parliament and if the unlikely occurs and the Lib-Dems gets seats then they will probably do a deal with Labour, such is the nature of the fence sitters. We can only hope that UKIP get a few seats and then we may well get a referendum, without the fallacious conditions Cameron will invent. RichardR1
  • Score: 0

1:49pm Thu 24 Jan 13

adsinibiza says...

StillPav wrote:
adsinibiza wrote:
Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years!
Is the uncertainly over Britain's membership of the EU any worse than the uncertainly over the future of the Euro?
People in the UK don't really understand what the Euo is about or the determination of most Europeans to keep it. If you look at the Euro situation from a European point of view rather than a British euro-sceptic point of view there is very little uncertainty - they like it and want to keep it.

It's people in this country that try to whip up the uncertainty about the Euo for the own political reasons. It's also worth remembering that countries like Greece, Spain etc would still be bust whatever the currency - In the case of Greece they went bust because of 40 years of a socialist governements excessive spending and they would be in the same state whatever currency they had - Euro or Drachma or whatever.
[quote][p][bold]StillPav[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]adsinibiza[/bold] wrote: Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years![/p][/quote]Is the uncertainly over Britain's membership of the EU any worse than the uncertainly over the future of the Euro?[/p][/quote]People in the UK don't really understand what the Euo is about or the determination of most Europeans to keep it. If you look at the Euro situation from a European point of view rather than a British euro-sceptic point of view there is very little uncertainty - they like it and want to keep it. It's people in this country that try to whip up the uncertainty about the Euo for the own political reasons. It's also worth remembering that countries like Greece, Spain etc would still be bust whatever the currency - In the case of Greece they went bust because of 40 years of a socialist governements excessive spending and they would be in the same state whatever currency they had - Euro or Drachma or whatever. adsinibiza
  • Score: 0

1:54pm Thu 24 Jan 13

benzss says...

adsinibiza wrote:
StillPav wrote:
adsinibiza wrote: Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years!
Is the uncertainly over Britain's membership of the EU any worse than the uncertainly over the future of the Euro?
People in the UK don't really understand what the Euo is about or the determination of most Europeans to keep it. If you look at the Euro situation from a European point of view rather than a British euro-sceptic point of view there is very little uncertainty - they like it and want to keep it. It's people in this country that try to whip up the uncertainty about the Euo for the own political reasons. It's also worth remembering that countries like Greece, Spain etc would still be bust whatever the currency - In the case of Greece they went bust because of 40 years of a socialist governements excessive spending and they would be in the same state whatever currency they had - Euro or Drachma or whatever.
Arguably Greece would be better off defaulting and decoupling from the Euro.
[quote][p][bold]adsinibiza[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]StillPav[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]adsinibiza[/bold] wrote: Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years![/p][/quote]Is the uncertainly over Britain's membership of the EU any worse than the uncertainly over the future of the Euro?[/p][/quote]People in the UK don't really understand what the Euo is about or the determination of most Europeans to keep it. If you look at the Euro situation from a European point of view rather than a British euro-sceptic point of view there is very little uncertainty - they like it and want to keep it. It's people in this country that try to whip up the uncertainty about the Euo for the own political reasons. It's also worth remembering that countries like Greece, Spain etc would still be bust whatever the currency - In the case of Greece they went bust because of 40 years of a socialist governements excessive spending and they would be in the same state whatever currency they had - Euro or Drachma or whatever.[/p][/quote]Arguably Greece would be better off defaulting and decoupling from the Euro. benzss
  • Score: 0

2:10pm Thu 24 Jan 13

Davey Gravey says...

RichardR1 wrote:
We will have another hung Parliament and if the unlikely occurs and the Lib-Dems gets seats then they will probably do a deal with Labour, such is the nature of the fence sitters.

We can only hope that UKIP get a few seats and then we may well get a referendum, without the fallacious conditions Cameron will invent.
So Richard shares exactly the same views as the departed robfm,posts the same way but it isn't him. What a coincidence eh?
[quote][p][bold]RichardR1[/bold] wrote: We will have another hung Parliament and if the unlikely occurs and the Lib-Dems gets seats then they will probably do a deal with Labour, such is the nature of the fence sitters. We can only hope that UKIP get a few seats and then we may well get a referendum, without the fallacious conditions Cameron will invent.[/p][/quote]So Richard shares exactly the same views as the departed robfm,posts the same way but it isn't him. What a coincidence eh? Davey Gravey
  • Score: 0

2:31pm Thu 24 Jan 13

The Real Librarian says...

benzss wrote:
RichardR1 wrote: benzss Nato ensured European piece not the EU in fact for 40 years France wasn't even apermanent member because DeGaulle hated Britain, and it joining the EEC. It's interesting you mentioned Corporation Tax because Cameron in a speech in Davos this morning was boasting that low taxes attracts inward investment and we have the lowest CT in the G7, and would continue to ensure we kept it that way, so no tax harmonisation. Frankly Cameron is running out of reasons as to why he still reckons we are better off in.
Hm, that's not as I know it; France was a founding member and a driving force behind a 'united Europe', implicitly to forestall any kind of western/central European war. NATO was created in the main to counter the threat from beyond the Iron Curtain... Tax rates themselves are not harmonised but who taxes whom and where is harmonised. This is the main complaint behind the likes of Amazon being based in Luxembourg and trading all over Europe. In essence, the EEC agrees that a company can be based anywhere in the EU and trade anywhere else while only being taxed once (ex. VAT, NI, etc).
France withdrew its forces from NATO control between 1959 and 1967.

They wanted the option to surrender to the USSR without NATO's permission.
[quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]RichardR1[/bold] wrote: benzss Nato ensured European piece not the EU in fact for 40 years France wasn't even apermanent member because DeGaulle hated Britain, and it joining the EEC. It's interesting you mentioned Corporation Tax because Cameron in a speech in Davos this morning was boasting that low taxes attracts inward investment and we have the lowest CT in the G7, and would continue to ensure we kept it that way, so no tax harmonisation. Frankly Cameron is running out of reasons as to why he still reckons we are better off in.[/p][/quote]Hm, that's not as I know it; France was a founding member and a driving force behind a 'united Europe', implicitly to forestall any kind of western/central European war. NATO was created in the main to counter the threat from beyond the Iron Curtain... Tax rates themselves are not harmonised but who taxes whom and where is harmonised. This is the main complaint behind the likes of Amazon being based in Luxembourg and trading all over Europe. In essence, the EEC agrees that a company can be based anywhere in the EU and trade anywhere else while only being taxed once (ex. VAT, NI, etc).[/p][/quote]France withdrew its forces from NATO control between 1959 and 1967. They wanted the option to surrender to the USSR without NATO's permission. The Real Librarian
  • Score: 0

2:32pm Thu 24 Jan 13

A.Baron-Cohen says...

benzss wrote:
adsinibiza wrote:
StillPav wrote:
adsinibiza wrote: Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years!
Is the uncertainly over Britain's membership of the EU any worse than the uncertainly over the future of the Euro?
People in the UK don't really understand what the Euo is about or the determination of most Europeans to keep it. If you look at the Euro situation from a European point of view rather than a British euro-sceptic point of view there is very little uncertainty - they like it and want to keep it. It's people in this country that try to whip up the uncertainty about the Euo for the own political reasons. It's also worth remembering that countries like Greece, Spain etc would still be bust whatever the currency - In the case of Greece they went bust because of 40 years of a socialist governements excessive spending and they would be in the same state whatever currency they had - Euro or Drachma or whatever.
Arguably Greece would be better off defaulting and decoupling from the Euro.
Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project. It provides europeans with opportunities to travel, work, live (retire) and study wherever they want.
Business leaders understand the importance of the Union in terms of consumer market and investment opportunities.
However the difference comes from the fact that Europeans have experienced: wars, occupation and military regimes and being part of the European Union provide them with the reassurance of Peace and European cooperation.
[quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]adsinibiza[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]StillPav[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]adsinibiza[/bold] wrote: Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years![/p][/quote]Is the uncertainly over Britain's membership of the EU any worse than the uncertainly over the future of the Euro?[/p][/quote]People in the UK don't really understand what the Euo is about or the determination of most Europeans to keep it. If you look at the Euro situation from a European point of view rather than a British euro-sceptic point of view there is very little uncertainty - they like it and want to keep it. It's people in this country that try to whip up the uncertainty about the Euo for the own political reasons. It's also worth remembering that countries like Greece, Spain etc would still be bust whatever the currency - In the case of Greece they went bust because of 40 years of a socialist governements excessive spending and they would be in the same state whatever currency they had - Euro or Drachma or whatever.[/p][/quote]Arguably Greece would be better off defaulting and decoupling from the Euro.[/p][/quote]Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project. It provides europeans with opportunities to travel, work, live (retire) and study wherever they want. Business leaders understand the importance of the Union in terms of consumer market and investment opportunities. However the difference comes from the fact that Europeans have experienced: wars, occupation and military regimes and being part of the European Union provide them with the reassurance of Peace and European cooperation. A.Baron-Cohen
  • Score: 0

2:50pm Thu 24 Jan 13

RichardR1 says...

Tell that to the former Yugoslavian citizens.

The reasons for leaving are well stated many times. The scaremongering of the pro EU side is just that. It is not in the interests of the major EU states not to trade with us. As for influence what influence.

We lost a major chunk of our rebate on the promise of CAP reform, France simply said no and that was it .

We are told we can't take over certain companies of EU countries and then those countries take over our major companies.

The EU assist India to shut our steel plants and then aid them to build their own, using th carbon credits they saved to offset their carbon emissions. All very harmonious don't you think.

Davey hate to burst your bubble but at least 22,000 UKIP members would agree with Robfm's views and if surveys are true 65% of UK voters.
Tell that to the former Yugoslavian citizens. The reasons for leaving are well stated many times. The scaremongering of the pro EU side is just that. It is not in the interests of the major EU states not to trade with us. As for influence what influence. We lost a major chunk of our rebate on the promise of CAP reform, France simply said no and that was it . We are told we can't take over certain companies of EU countries and then those countries take over our major companies. The EU assist India to shut our steel plants and then aid them to build their own, using th carbon credits they saved to offset their carbon emissions. All very harmonious don't you think. Davey hate to burst your bubble but at least 22,000 UKIP members would agree with Robfm's views and if surveys are true 65% of UK voters. RichardR1
  • Score: 0

3:02pm Thu 24 Jan 13

The Real Librarian says...

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
benzss wrote:
adsinibiza wrote:
StillPav wrote:
adsinibiza wrote: Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years!
Is the uncertainly over Britain's membership of the EU any worse than the uncertainly over the future of the Euro?
People in the UK don't really understand what the Euo is about or the determination of most Europeans to keep it. If you look at the Euro situation from a European point of view rather than a British euro-sceptic point of view there is very little uncertainty - they like it and want to keep it. It's people in this country that try to whip up the uncertainty about the Euo for the own political reasons. It's also worth remembering that countries like Greece, Spain etc would still be bust whatever the currency - In the case of Greece they went bust because of 40 years of a socialist governements excessive spending and they would be in the same state whatever currency they had - Euro or Drachma or whatever.
Arguably Greece would be better off defaulting and decoupling from the Euro.
Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project. It provides europeans with opportunities to travel, work, live (retire) and study wherever they want. Business leaders understand the importance of the Union in terms of consumer market and investment opportunities. However the difference comes from the fact that Europeans have experienced: wars, occupation and military regimes and being part of the European Union provide them with the reassurance of Peace and European cooperation.
QUOTE
A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project. It provides europeans with opportunities to travel, work, live (retire) and study wherever they want.
UNQUOTE

Amazing. So what you are saying is that before 1973, no-one from any country in europe ever went abroad for holiday or worked abroad or retired abroad or studied abroad.

Oh wait - they did. There was just a bit of paperwork involved. Boo Hoo

QUOTE
Business leaders understand the importance of the Union in terms of consumer market and investment opportunities.
UNQUOTE

So no-one did business abroad before 1973 either?

QUOTE
However the difference comes from the fact that Europeans have experienced: wars, occupation and military regimes and being part of the European Union provide them with the reassurance of Peace and European cooperation. UNQUOTE

No that was NATO, founded in 1947 and designed to "keep the Russians out, the Americans in and the Germans down."
[quote][p][bold]A.Baron-Cohen[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]adsinibiza[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]StillPav[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]adsinibiza[/bold] wrote: Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years![/p][/quote]Is the uncertainly over Britain's membership of the EU any worse than the uncertainly over the future of the Euro?[/p][/quote]People in the UK don't really understand what the Euo is about or the determination of most Europeans to keep it. If you look at the Euro situation from a European point of view rather than a British euro-sceptic point of view there is very little uncertainty - they like it and want to keep it. It's people in this country that try to whip up the uncertainty about the Euo for the own political reasons. It's also worth remembering that countries like Greece, Spain etc would still be bust whatever the currency - In the case of Greece they went bust because of 40 years of a socialist governements excessive spending and they would be in the same state whatever currency they had - Euro or Drachma or whatever.[/p][/quote]Arguably Greece would be better off defaulting and decoupling from the Euro.[/p][/quote]Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project. It provides europeans with opportunities to travel, work, live (retire) and study wherever they want. Business leaders understand the importance of the Union in terms of consumer market and investment opportunities. However the difference comes from the fact that Europeans have experienced: wars, occupation and military regimes and being part of the European Union provide them with the reassurance of Peace and European cooperation.[/p][/quote]QUOTE A.Baron-Cohen wrote: Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project. It provides europeans with opportunities to travel, work, live (retire) and study wherever they want. UNQUOTE Amazing. So what you are saying is that before 1973, no-one from any country in europe ever went abroad for holiday or worked abroad or retired abroad or studied abroad. Oh wait - they did. There was just a bit of paperwork involved. Boo Hoo QUOTE Business leaders understand the importance of the Union in terms of consumer market and investment opportunities. UNQUOTE So no-one did business abroad before 1973 either? QUOTE However the difference comes from the fact that Europeans have experienced: wars, occupation and military regimes and being part of the European Union provide them with the reassurance of Peace and European cooperation. UNQUOTE No that was NATO, founded in 1947 and designed to "keep the Russians out, the Americans in and the Germans down." The Real Librarian
  • Score: 0

3:03pm Thu 24 Jan 13

A.Baron-Cohen says...

The Real Librarian wrote:
benzss wrote:
RichardR1 wrote: benzss Nato ensured European piece not the EU in fact for 40 years France wasn't even apermanent member because DeGaulle hated Britain, and it joining the EEC. It's interesting you mentioned Corporation Tax because Cameron in a speech in Davos this morning was boasting that low taxes attracts inward investment and we have the lowest CT in the G7, and would continue to ensure we kept it that way, so no tax harmonisation. Frankly Cameron is running out of reasons as to why he still reckons we are better off in.
Hm, that's not as I know it; France was a founding member and a driving force behind a 'united Europe', implicitly to forestall any kind of western/central European war. NATO was created in the main to counter the threat from beyond the Iron Curtain... Tax rates themselves are not harmonised but who taxes whom and where is harmonised. This is the main complaint behind the likes of Amazon being based in Luxembourg and trading all over Europe. In essence, the EEC agrees that a company can be based anywhere in the EU and trade anywhere else while only being taxed once (ex. VAT, NI, etc).
France withdrew its forces from NATO control between 1959 and 1967.

They wanted the option to surrender to the USSR without NATO's permission.
France withdrew from NATO command because it wanted to be in sole control of its Nuclear deterrent. A little bit like we want out the EU because we want sole control of our Sovereignty.
[quote][p][bold]The Real Librarian[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]RichardR1[/bold] wrote: benzss Nato ensured European piece not the EU in fact for 40 years France wasn't even apermanent member because DeGaulle hated Britain, and it joining the EEC. It's interesting you mentioned Corporation Tax because Cameron in a speech in Davos this morning was boasting that low taxes attracts inward investment and we have the lowest CT in the G7, and would continue to ensure we kept it that way, so no tax harmonisation. Frankly Cameron is running out of reasons as to why he still reckons we are better off in.[/p][/quote]Hm, that's not as I know it; France was a founding member and a driving force behind a 'united Europe', implicitly to forestall any kind of western/central European war. NATO was created in the main to counter the threat from beyond the Iron Curtain... Tax rates themselves are not harmonised but who taxes whom and where is harmonised. This is the main complaint behind the likes of Amazon being based in Luxembourg and trading all over Europe. In essence, the EEC agrees that a company can be based anywhere in the EU and trade anywhere else while only being taxed once (ex. VAT, NI, etc).[/p][/quote]France withdrew its forces from NATO control between 1959 and 1967. They wanted the option to surrender to the USSR without NATO's permission.[/p][/quote]France withdrew from NATO command because it wanted to be in sole control of its Nuclear deterrent. A little bit like we want out the EU because we want sole control of our Sovereignty. A.Baron-Cohen
  • Score: 0

3:07pm Thu 24 Jan 13

LordAshOfTheBrake says...

@house on the hill

The three makes I mentioned are predominantly manufacturer in Germany (at least that's my understanding) which is why I singled them out as opposed to Honda, Nissan, Ford and a number of others that do manufacture in the UK. Only the Mini is manufactured in the UK from BMW's fleet (to the best of my knowledge and that's only a legacy to Mini's origins) and there are more 3 series on the roads than Mini's.


The underlying point is though (and I didn't make it clear), that if people don't buy stuff made in Britian (not necessarily British company) they are helping other economies improve by supporting jobs in those countries. Yet they complain about the British economy and how bad things are.


I think the only major economy in Europe which is not in recession in Germany.
@house on the hill The three makes I mentioned are predominantly manufacturer in Germany (at least that's my understanding) which is why I singled them out as opposed to Honda, Nissan, Ford and a number of others that do manufacture in the UK. Only the Mini is manufactured in the UK from BMW's fleet (to the best of my knowledge and that's only a legacy to Mini's origins) and there are more 3 series on the roads than Mini's. The underlying point is though (and I didn't make it clear), that if people don't buy stuff made in Britian (not necessarily British company) they are helping other economies improve by supporting jobs in those countries. Yet they complain about the British economy and how bad things are. I think the only major economy in Europe which is not in recession in Germany. LordAshOfTheBrake
  • Score: 0

3:08pm Thu 24 Jan 13

benzss says...

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
benzss wrote:
adsinibiza wrote:
StillPav wrote:
adsinibiza wrote: Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years!
Is the uncertainly over Britain's membership of the EU any worse than the uncertainly over the future of the Euro?
People in the UK don't really understand what the Euo is about or the determination of most Europeans to keep it. If you look at the Euro situation from a European point of view rather than a British euro-sceptic point of view there is very little uncertainty - they like it and want to keep it. It's people in this country that try to whip up the uncertainty about the Euo for the own political reasons. It's also worth remembering that countries like Greece, Spain etc would still be bust whatever the currency - In the case of Greece they went bust because of 40 years of a socialist governements excessive spending and they would be in the same state whatever currency they had - Euro or Drachma or whatever.
Arguably Greece would be better off defaulting and decoupling from the Euro.
Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project. It provides europeans with opportunities to travel, work, live (retire) and study wherever they want. Business leaders understand the importance of the Union in terms of consumer market and investment opportunities. However the difference comes from the fact that Europeans have experienced: wars, occupation and military regimes and being part of the European Union provide them with the reassurance of Peace and European cooperation.
Well, yes, we've already come to the conclusion that the proto-EU was a project to stop France getting invaded again... or, at least, I have ;)

All the rest kind of points at the problem the more enlightened among us (i.e. the non-xenophobes and non-mercantilists) have with the EU. That is, the idea of a common market is a good one, as is easier travel, easier movement of capital and, yes, easier movement of labour.

But the project has moved beyond a simple EEC and is instead very ideological, full of at least semi-corrupt and rent-seeking politicians and organisations with the one batty diktat after another (the snus ban, anyone?).

I'd rather stay in the EU, a much less powerful EU which simply arbitrates and facilitates trade and all transactions economic. What a pipe dream.
[quote][p][bold]A.Baron-Cohen[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]adsinibiza[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]StillPav[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]adsinibiza[/bold] wrote: Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years![/p][/quote]Is the uncertainly over Britain's membership of the EU any worse than the uncertainly over the future of the Euro?[/p][/quote]People in the UK don't really understand what the Euo is about or the determination of most Europeans to keep it. If you look at the Euro situation from a European point of view rather than a British euro-sceptic point of view there is very little uncertainty - they like it and want to keep it. It's people in this country that try to whip up the uncertainty about the Euo for the own political reasons. It's also worth remembering that countries like Greece, Spain etc would still be bust whatever the currency - In the case of Greece they went bust because of 40 years of a socialist governements excessive spending and they would be in the same state whatever currency they had - Euro or Drachma or whatever.[/p][/quote]Arguably Greece would be better off defaulting and decoupling from the Euro.[/p][/quote]Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project. It provides europeans with opportunities to travel, work, live (retire) and study wherever they want. Business leaders understand the importance of the Union in terms of consumer market and investment opportunities. However the difference comes from the fact that Europeans have experienced: wars, occupation and military regimes and being part of the European Union provide them with the reassurance of Peace and European cooperation.[/p][/quote]Well, yes, we've already come to the conclusion that the proto-EU was a project to stop France getting invaded again... or, at least, I have ;) All the rest kind of points at the problem the more enlightened among us (i.e. the non-xenophobes and non-mercantilists) have with the EU. That is, the idea of a common market is a good one, as is easier travel, easier movement of capital and, yes, easier movement of labour. But the project has moved beyond a simple EEC and is instead very ideological, full of at least semi-corrupt and rent-seeking politicians and organisations with the one batty diktat after another (the snus ban, anyone?). I'd rather stay in the EU, a much less powerful EU which simply arbitrates and facilitates trade and all transactions economic. What a pipe dream. benzss
  • Score: 0

3:11pm Thu 24 Jan 13

Tim Newroman says...

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project.

Yes, of course 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project, because 'most' Europeans live in countries without high levels of welfare benefits, free health care and relatively high average wages.

It would be rather odd, for example, for a Romanian on the average £208 per month salary (42 hour weeks) to be against something that means they are able to suddenly earn £1712 per month average salary (38 hour weeks) here in the UK.

Even the lowest possible UK benefit payment for an unemployed single person works out to £300 per month (plus housing benefit)... for working 0 hour weeks.

So, as you say, it's easy to see why 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project.
[quote][b]A.Baron-Cohen wrote:[/b] Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project. [/quote] Yes, of course 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project, because 'most' Europeans live in countries without high levels of welfare benefits, free health care and relatively high average wages. [p] It would be rather odd, for example, for a Romanian on the average £208 per month salary (42 hour weeks) to be against something that means they are able to suddenly earn £1712 per month average salary (38 hour weeks) here in the UK. [p] Even the lowest possible UK benefit payment for an unemployed single person works out to £300 per month (plus housing benefit)... for working 0 hour weeks. [p] So, as you say, it's easy to see why 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project. Tim Newroman
  • Score: 0

3:30pm Thu 24 Jan 13

Davey Gravey says...

@Richard-robfm. People vote ukip in euro elections as a protest vote. In other elections they vote elsewhere. Labour will win the next election with relative ease.
@Richard-robfm. People vote ukip in euro elections as a protest vote. In other elections they vote elsewhere. Labour will win the next election with relative ease. Davey Gravey
  • Score: 0

3:34pm Thu 24 Jan 13

The Artist formally known as Grumpy Old Man says...

LordAshOfTheBrake wrote:
@house on the hill

The three makes I mentioned are predominantly manufacturer in Germany (at least that's my understanding) which is why I singled them out as opposed to Honda, Nissan, Ford and a number of others that do manufacture in the UK. Only the Mini is manufactured in the UK from BMW's fleet (to the best of my knowledge and that's only a legacy to Mini's origins) and there are more 3 series on the roads than Mini's.


The underlying point is though (and I didn't make it clear), that if people don't buy stuff made in Britian (not necessarily British company) they are helping other economies improve by supporting jobs in those countries. Yet they complain about the British economy and how bad things are.


I think the only major economy in Europe which is not in recession in Germany.
My Volkswagen was built in Portugal... Just saying.... :)
[quote][p][bold]LordAshOfTheBrake[/bold] wrote: @house on the hill The three makes I mentioned are predominantly manufacturer in Germany (at least that's my understanding) which is why I singled them out as opposed to Honda, Nissan, Ford and a number of others that do manufacture in the UK. Only the Mini is manufactured in the UK from BMW's fleet (to the best of my knowledge and that's only a legacy to Mini's origins) and there are more 3 series on the roads than Mini's. The underlying point is though (and I didn't make it clear), that if people don't buy stuff made in Britian (not necessarily British company) they are helping other economies improve by supporting jobs in those countries. Yet they complain about the British economy and how bad things are. I think the only major economy in Europe which is not in recession in Germany.[/p][/quote]My Volkswagen was built in Portugal... Just saying.... :) The Artist formally known as Grumpy Old Man
  • Score: 0

3:37pm Thu 24 Jan 13

A.Baron-Cohen says...

Tim Newroman wrote:
A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project.

Yes, of course 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project, because 'most' Europeans live in countries without high levels of welfare benefits, free health care and relatively high average wages.

It would be rather odd, for example, for a Romanian on the average £208 per month salary (42 hour weeks) to be against something that means they are able to suddenly earn £1712 per month average salary (38 hour weeks) here in the UK.

Even the lowest possible UK benefit payment for an unemployed single person works out to £300 per month (plus housing benefit)... for working 0 hour weeks.

So, as you say, it's easy to see why 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project.
You are so wrong.....The best welfare systems are in Europe (France, Sweden, Germany) as for free healthcare I invite you to check the French system, it is quite something, with free higher education (University) still widespread in Europe however this is slowly changing.
I can positively say that UK wages are not the highest in Europe and by far.
Wages in Germany, France, Sweden, Norway are so much higher than in the UK, but it is true that taxation is higher too.
[quote][p][bold]Tim Newroman[/bold] wrote: [quote][b]A.Baron-Cohen wrote:[/b] Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project. [/quote] Yes, of course 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project, because 'most' Europeans live in countries without high levels of welfare benefits, free health care and relatively high average wages. [p] It would be rather odd, for example, for a Romanian on the average £208 per month salary (42 hour weeks) to be against something that means they are able to suddenly earn £1712 per month average salary (38 hour weeks) here in the UK. [p] Even the lowest possible UK benefit payment for an unemployed single person works out to £300 per month (plus housing benefit)... for working 0 hour weeks. [p] So, as you say, it's easy to see why 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project.[/p][/quote]You are so wrong.....The best welfare systems are in Europe (France, Sweden, Germany) as for free healthcare I invite you to check the French system, it is quite something, with free higher education (University) still widespread in Europe however this is slowly changing. I can positively say that UK wages are not the highest in Europe and by far. Wages in Germany, France, Sweden, Norway are so much higher than in the UK, but it is true that taxation is higher too. A.Baron-Cohen
  • Score: 0

3:40pm Thu 24 Jan 13

The Real Librarian says...

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
The Real Librarian wrote:
benzss wrote:
RichardR1 wrote: benzss Nato ensured European piece not the EU in fact for 40 years France wasn't even apermanent member because DeGaulle hated Britain, and it joining the EEC. It's interesting you mentioned Corporation Tax because Cameron in a speech in Davos this morning was boasting that low taxes attracts inward investment and we have the lowest CT in the G7, and would continue to ensure we kept it that way, so no tax harmonisation. Frankly Cameron is running out of reasons as to why he still reckons we are better off in.
Hm, that's not as I know it; France was a founding member and a driving force behind a 'united Europe', implicitly to forestall any kind of western/central European war. NATO was created in the main to counter the threat from beyond the Iron Curtain... Tax rates themselves are not harmonised but who taxes whom and where is harmonised. This is the main complaint behind the likes of Amazon being based in Luxembourg and trading all over Europe. In essence, the EEC agrees that a company can be based anywhere in the EU and trade anywhere else while only being taxed once (ex. VAT, NI, etc).
France withdrew its forces from NATO control between 1959 and 1967. They wanted the option to surrender to the USSR without NATO's permission.
France withdrew from NATO command because it wanted to be in sole control of its Nuclear deterrent. A little bit like we want out the EU because we want sole control of our Sovereignty.
Actually they literally wanted to be able to surrender to the USSR without being part of the NATO decision process.
Their logic, sound or not, is that they would be radioactive atoms by the time NATO decided to stop fighting.
[quote][p][bold]A.Baron-Cohen[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Real Librarian[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]RichardR1[/bold] wrote: benzss Nato ensured European piece not the EU in fact for 40 years France wasn't even apermanent member because DeGaulle hated Britain, and it joining the EEC. It's interesting you mentioned Corporation Tax because Cameron in a speech in Davos this morning was boasting that low taxes attracts inward investment and we have the lowest CT in the G7, and would continue to ensure we kept it that way, so no tax harmonisation. Frankly Cameron is running out of reasons as to why he still reckons we are better off in.[/p][/quote]Hm, that's not as I know it; France was a founding member and a driving force behind a 'united Europe', implicitly to forestall any kind of western/central European war. NATO was created in the main to counter the threat from beyond the Iron Curtain... Tax rates themselves are not harmonised but who taxes whom and where is harmonised. This is the main complaint behind the likes of Amazon being based in Luxembourg and trading all over Europe. In essence, the EEC agrees that a company can be based anywhere in the EU and trade anywhere else while only being taxed once (ex. VAT, NI, etc).[/p][/quote]France withdrew its forces from NATO control between 1959 and 1967. They wanted the option to surrender to the USSR without NATO's permission.[/p][/quote]France withdrew from NATO command because it wanted to be in sole control of its Nuclear deterrent. A little bit like we want out the EU because we want sole control of our Sovereignty.[/p][/quote]Actually they literally wanted to be able to surrender to the USSR without being part of the NATO decision process. Their logic, sound or not, is that they would be radioactive atoms by the time NATO decided to stop fighting. The Real Librarian
  • Score: 0

3:52pm Thu 24 Jan 13

A.Baron-Cohen says...

benzss wrote:
A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
benzss wrote:
adsinibiza wrote:
StillPav wrote:
adsinibiza wrote: Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years!
Is the uncertainly over Britain's membership of the EU any worse than the uncertainly over the future of the Euro?
People in the UK don't really understand what the Euo is about or the determination of most Europeans to keep it. If you look at the Euro situation from a European point of view rather than a British euro-sceptic point of view there is very little uncertainty - they like it and want to keep it. It's people in this country that try to whip up the uncertainty about the Euo for the own political reasons. It's also worth remembering that countries like Greece, Spain etc would still be bust whatever the currency - In the case of Greece they went bust because of 40 years of a socialist governements excessive spending and they would be in the same state whatever currency they had - Euro or Drachma or whatever.
Arguably Greece would be better off defaulting and decoupling from the Euro.
Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project. It provides europeans with opportunities to travel, work, live (retire) and study wherever they want. Business leaders understand the importance of the Union in terms of consumer market and investment opportunities. However the difference comes from the fact that Europeans have experienced: wars, occupation and military regimes and being part of the European Union provide them with the reassurance of Peace and European cooperation.
Well, yes, we've already come to the conclusion that the proto-EU was a project to stop France getting invaded again... or, at least, I have ;)

All the rest kind of points at the problem the more enlightened among us (i.e. the non-xenophobes and non-mercantilists) have with the EU. That is, the idea of a common market is a good one, as is easier travel, easier movement of capital and, yes, easier movement of labour.

But the project has moved beyond a simple EEC and is instead very ideological, full of at least semi-corrupt and rent-seeking politicians and organisations with the one batty diktat after another (the snus ban, anyone?).

I'd rather stay in the EU, a much less powerful EU which simply arbitrates and facilitates trade and all transactions economic. What a pipe dream.
France under De Gaulle actually built its Nuclear arsenal against the USA and Britain. The Franco-German alliance was born out of the fear that Americans and British would rule the European continent.
I am the first to admit that EU Institutions need to be more Democratic, however the European project path is to lead to a full European Federation, like Russia and the USA. The Eurozone countries will form the core of it and satellites States like Britain, Norway will be given special partnership.
I do not think that Britain can fit in such Federation, and most Europeans partners wouldn't want Britain in it so I think we are heading towards an inevitable exit, but I do not think it will be too catastrophic for us.
[quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]A.Baron-Cohen[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]benzss[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]adsinibiza[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]StillPav[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]adsinibiza[/bold] wrote: Whatever your view on the referendum or on whether Britain should stay in or get out, the length of time between now and when the referendum will be held (assuming it is) will cause uncertainty and could damage and delay foreign investment in the UK, and therefore has to be questionable. Hold a referendum by all means Mr Cameron - but do it in 5 months - not 5 years![/p][/quote]Is the uncertainly over Britain's membership of the EU any worse than the uncertainly over the future of the Euro?[/p][/quote]People in the UK don't really understand what the Euo is about or the determination of most Europeans to keep it. If you look at the Euro situation from a European point of view rather than a British euro-sceptic point of view there is very little uncertainty - they like it and want to keep it. It's people in this country that try to whip up the uncertainty about the Euo for the own political reasons. It's also worth remembering that countries like Greece, Spain etc would still be bust whatever the currency - In the case of Greece they went bust because of 40 years of a socialist governements excessive spending and they would be in the same state whatever currency they had - Euro or Drachma or whatever.[/p][/quote]Arguably Greece would be better off defaulting and decoupling from the Euro.[/p][/quote]Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project. It provides europeans with opportunities to travel, work, live (retire) and study wherever they want. Business leaders understand the importance of the Union in terms of consumer market and investment opportunities. However the difference comes from the fact that Europeans have experienced: wars, occupation and military regimes and being part of the European Union provide them with the reassurance of Peace and European cooperation.[/p][/quote]Well, yes, we've already come to the conclusion that the proto-EU was a project to stop France getting invaded again... or, at least, I have ;) All the rest kind of points at the problem the more enlightened among us (i.e. the non-xenophobes and non-mercantilists) have with the EU. That is, the idea of a common market is a good one, as is easier travel, easier movement of capital and, yes, easier movement of labour. But the project has moved beyond a simple EEC and is instead very ideological, full of at least semi-corrupt and rent-seeking politicians and organisations with the one batty diktat after another (the snus ban, anyone?). I'd rather stay in the EU, a much less powerful EU which simply arbitrates and facilitates trade and all transactions economic. What a pipe dream.[/p][/quote]France under De Gaulle actually built its Nuclear arsenal against the USA and Britain. The Franco-German alliance was born out of the fear that Americans and British would rule the European continent. I am the first to admit that EU Institutions need to be more Democratic, however the European project path is to lead to a full European Federation, like Russia and the USA. The Eurozone countries will form the core of it and satellites States like Britain, Norway will be given special partnership. I do not think that Britain can fit in such Federation, and most Europeans partners wouldn't want Britain in it so I think we are heading towards an inevitable exit, but I do not think it will be too catastrophic for us. A.Baron-Cohen
  • Score: 0

4:39pm Thu 24 Jan 13

Tim Newroman says...

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Tim Newroman wrote:
A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project.

Yes, of course 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project, because 'most' Europeans live in countries without high levels of welfare benefits, free health care and relatively high average wages.

It would be rather odd, for example, for a Romanian on the average £208 per month salary (42 hour weeks) to be against something that means they are able to suddenly earn £1712 per month average salary (38 hour weeks) here in the UK.

Even the lowest possible UK benefit payment for an unemployed single person works out to £300 per month (plus housing benefit)... for working 0 hour weeks.

So, as you say, it's easy to see why 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project.
You are so wrong.....The best welfare systems are in Europe (France, Sweden, Germany) as for free healthcare I invite you to check the French system, it is quite something, with free higher education (University) still widespread in Europe however this is slowly changing.
I can positively say that UK wages are not the highest in Europe and by far.
Wages in Germany, France, Sweden, Norway are so much higher than in the UK, but it is true that taxation is higher too.
I stated that 'most' Europeans like the idea of the European project.

Most Europeans do not live in France, Germany or Sweden.

You also carefully neglect to point out that access to other welfare systems is more tightly controlled than in the UK.

Remember, if the benefits systems in France, Germany or Sweden were more generous than our own, you would see a huge exodus of those on benefits in the UK to those other nations. They are perfectly at liberty to go there tomorrow and claim those higher benefits... but they don't, and you know full well why they don't.

Your misrepresentation on this issue is appalling. As have been your clearly intended insults. Still, at least you've not fallaciously accused me of being a BNP member on this thread, yet.
[quote][p][bold]A.Baron-Cohen[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tim Newroman[/bold] wrote: [quote][b]A.Baron-Cohen wrote:[/b] Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project. [/quote] Yes, of course 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project, because 'most' Europeans live in countries without high levels of welfare benefits, free health care and relatively high average wages. [p] It would be rather odd, for example, for a Romanian on the average £208 per month salary (42 hour weeks) to be against something that means they are able to suddenly earn £1712 per month average salary (38 hour weeks) here in the UK. [p] Even the lowest possible UK benefit payment for an unemployed single person works out to £300 per month (plus housing benefit)... for working 0 hour weeks. [p] So, as you say, it's easy to see why 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project.[/p][/quote]You are so wrong.....The best welfare systems are in Europe (France, Sweden, Germany) as for free healthcare I invite you to check the French system, it is quite something, with free higher education (University) still widespread in Europe however this is slowly changing. I can positively say that UK wages are not the highest in Europe and by far. Wages in Germany, France, Sweden, Norway are so much higher than in the UK, but it is true that taxation is higher too.[/p][/quote]I stated that 'most' Europeans like the idea of the European project. [p] Most Europeans do not live in France, Germany or Sweden. [p] You also carefully neglect to point out that access to other welfare systems is more tightly controlled than in the UK. [p] Remember, if the benefits systems in France, Germany or Sweden were more generous than our own, you would see a huge exodus of those on benefits in the UK to those other nations. They are perfectly at liberty to go there tomorrow and claim those higher benefits... but they don't, and you know full well why they don't. [p] Your misrepresentation on this issue is appalling. As have been your clearly intended insults. Still, at least you've not fallaciously accused me of being a BNP member on this thread, yet. Tim Newroman
  • Score: 0

4:52pm Thu 24 Jan 13

Robh says...

adsinibiza - It is easy to quote untruths much harder to back them up.

I spent many a holday in Germany before and after the Euro and many of my friends in Germany detested it. Prices went up and the exchange rate was a farce. It high lighted the difference in prices for various goods across Europe. There seems to be no alignment in prices for anything so how can it be a common currency.
adsinibiza - It is easy to quote untruths much harder to back them up. I spent many a holday in Germany before and after the Euro and many of my friends in Germany detested it. Prices went up and the exchange rate was a farce. It high lighted the difference in prices for various goods across Europe. There seems to be no alignment in prices for anything so how can it be a common currency. Robh
  • Score: 0

4:55pm Thu 24 Jan 13

A.Baron-Cohen says...

Tim Newroman wrote:
A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Tim Newroman wrote:
A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project.

Yes, of course 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project, because 'most' Europeans live in countries without high levels of welfare benefits, free health care and relatively high average wages.

It would be rather odd, for example, for a Romanian on the average £208 per month salary (42 hour weeks) to be against something that means they are able to suddenly earn £1712 per month average salary (38 hour weeks) here in the UK.

Even the lowest possible UK benefit payment for an unemployed single person works out to £300 per month (plus housing benefit)... for working 0 hour weeks.

So, as you say, it's easy to see why 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project.
You are so wrong.....The best welfare systems are in Europe (France, Sweden, Germany) as for free healthcare I invite you to check the French system, it is quite something, with free higher education (University) still widespread in Europe however this is slowly changing.
I can positively say that UK wages are not the highest in Europe and by far.
Wages in Germany, France, Sweden, Norway are so much higher than in the UK, but it is true that taxation is higher too.
I stated that 'most' Europeans like the idea of the European project.

Most Europeans do not live in France, Germany or Sweden.

You also carefully neglect to point out that access to other welfare systems is more tightly controlled than in the UK.

Remember, if the benefits systems in France, Germany or Sweden were more generous than our own, you would see a huge exodus of those on benefits in the UK to those other nations. They are perfectly at liberty to go there tomorrow and claim those higher benefits... but they don't, and you know full well why they don't.

Your misrepresentation on this issue is appalling. As have been your clearly intended insults. Still, at least you've not fallaciously accused me of being a BNP member on this thread, yet.
I was merely stating the obvious which is that the Welfare, Healthcare and Education are more generous on the continent, you are correct most Europeans do not live in Germany and France only a third of the total.
The UK is a prime destination for immigration for 2 reasons:
1- Britain had a huge Empire, and former colonies therefore provide a huge numbers of migrants.
2- Britain is easier to reach and settle than in other Europeans countries, less beaucratic, less police and border controls.
[quote][p][bold]Tim Newroman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]A.Baron-Cohen[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tim Newroman[/bold] wrote: [quote][b]A.Baron-Cohen wrote:[/b] Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project. [/quote] Yes, of course 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project, because 'most' Europeans live in countries without high levels of welfare benefits, free health care and relatively high average wages. [p] It would be rather odd, for example, for a Romanian on the average £208 per month salary (42 hour weeks) to be against something that means they are able to suddenly earn £1712 per month average salary (38 hour weeks) here in the UK. [p] Even the lowest possible UK benefit payment for an unemployed single person works out to £300 per month (plus housing benefit)... for working 0 hour weeks. [p] So, as you say, it's easy to see why 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project.[/p][/quote]You are so wrong.....The best welfare systems are in Europe (France, Sweden, Germany) as for free healthcare I invite you to check the French system, it is quite something, with free higher education (University) still widespread in Europe however this is slowly changing. I can positively say that UK wages are not the highest in Europe and by far. Wages in Germany, France, Sweden, Norway are so much higher than in the UK, but it is true that taxation is higher too.[/p][/quote]I stated that 'most' Europeans like the idea of the European project. [p] Most Europeans do not live in France, Germany or Sweden. [p] You also carefully neglect to point out that access to other welfare systems is more tightly controlled than in the UK. [p] Remember, if the benefits systems in France, Germany or Sweden were more generous than our own, you would see a huge exodus of those on benefits in the UK to those other nations. They are perfectly at liberty to go there tomorrow and claim those higher benefits... but they don't, and you know full well why they don't. [p] Your misrepresentation on this issue is appalling. As have been your clearly intended insults. Still, at least you've not fallaciously accused me of being a BNP member on this thread, yet.[/p][/quote]I was merely stating the obvious which is that the Welfare, Healthcare and Education are more generous on the continent, you are correct most Europeans do not live in Germany and France only a third of the total. The UK is a prime destination for immigration for 2 reasons: 1- Britain had a huge Empire, and former colonies therefore provide a huge numbers of migrants. 2- Britain is easier to reach and settle than in other Europeans countries, less beaucratic, less police and border controls. A.Baron-Cohen
  • Score: 0

5:31pm Thu 24 Jan 13

Tim Newroman says...

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Tim Newroman wrote:
A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Tim Newroman wrote:
A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project.

Yes, of course 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project, because 'most' Europeans live in countries without high levels of welfare benefits, free health care and relatively high average wages.

It would be rather odd, for example, for a Romanian on the average £208 per month salary (42 hour weeks) to be against something that means they are able to suddenly earn £1712 per month average salary (38 hour weeks) here in the UK.

Even the lowest possible UK benefit payment for an unemployed single person works out to £300 per month (plus housing benefit)... for working 0 hour weeks.

So, as you say, it's easy to see why 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project.
You are so wrong.....The best welfare systems are in Europe (France, Sweden, Germany) as for free healthcare I invite you to check the French system, it is quite something, with free higher education (University) still widespread in Europe however this is slowly changing.
I can positively say that UK wages are not the highest in Europe and by far.
Wages in Germany, France, Sweden, Norway are so much higher than in the UK, but it is true that taxation is higher too.
I stated that 'most' Europeans like the idea of the European project.

Most Europeans do not live in France, Germany or Sweden.

You also carefully neglect to point out that access to other welfare systems is more tightly controlled than in the UK.

Remember, if the benefits systems in France, Germany or Sweden were more generous than our own, you would see a huge exodus of those on benefits in the UK to those other nations. They are perfectly at liberty to go there tomorrow and claim those higher benefits... but they don't, and you know full well why they don't.

Your misrepresentation on this issue is appalling. As have been your clearly intended insults. Still, at least you've not fallaciously accused me of being a BNP member on this thread, yet.
I was merely stating the obvious which is that the Welfare, Healthcare and Education are more generous on the continent, you are correct most Europeans do not live in Germany and France only a third of the total.
The UK is a prime destination for immigration for 2 reasons:
1- Britain had a huge Empire, and former colonies therefore provide a huge numbers of migrants.
2- Britain is easier to reach and settle than in other Europeans countries, less beaucratic, less police and border controls.
Do you actually believe the things you write? I mean, seriously, you've just posted lie after lie after lie. Either you're monumentally misinformed, or you actually know your claims to be incorrect before you post them:

1. The biggest numbers of immigrants to the UK from the EU do not come from former British colony nations.

2. How can Britain, an island, be 'far easier to reach' for anyone who lives on mainland Europe?

I was merely stating the obvious which is that the Welfare, Healthcare and Education are more generous on the continent

Which is not only incorrect, it's not even 'obvious'. Yes, a couple of EU nations have benefits system that are broadly as generous as outs. Yes, one or two EU nations have better free healthcare. But to suggest that 'welfare, healthcare and education are more generous on the contintent' is disingenous in the extreme.

I'll ask again: if what you claim was actually true, why doesn't just about everyone on benefits in the UK simply move a couple of hundreds miles across the channel and immediately receive more money, better healthcare and better education for their children?
[quote][p][bold]A.Baron-Cohen[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tim Newroman[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]A.Baron-Cohen[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tim Newroman[/bold] wrote: [quote][b]A.Baron-Cohen wrote:[/b] Most Europeans, actually like the idea of a European project. [/quote] Yes, of course 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project, because 'most' Europeans live in countries without high levels of welfare benefits, free health care and relatively high average wages. [p] It would be rather odd, for example, for a Romanian on the average £208 per month salary (42 hour weeks) to be against something that means they are able to suddenly earn £1712 per month average salary (38 hour weeks) here in the UK. [p] Even the lowest possible UK benefit payment for an unemployed single person works out to £300 per month (plus housing benefit)... for working 0 hour weeks. [p] So, as you say, it's easy to see why 'most' Europeans like the idea of a European project.[/p][/quote]You are so wrong.....The best welfare systems are in Europe (France, Sweden, Germany) as for free healthcare I invite you to check the French system, it is quite something, with free higher education (University) still widespread in Europe however this is slowly changing. I can positively say that UK wages are not the highest in Europe and by far. Wages in Germany, France, Sweden, Norway are so much higher than in the UK, but it is true that taxation is higher too.[/p][/quote]I stated that 'most' Europeans like the idea of the European project. [p] Most Europeans do not live in France, Germany or Sweden. [p] You also carefully neglect to point out that access to other welfare systems is more tightly controlled than in the UK. [p] Remember, if the benefits systems in France, Germany or Sweden were more generous than our own, you would see a huge exodus of those on benefits in the UK to those other nations. They are perfectly at liberty to go there tomorrow and claim those higher benefits... but they don't, and you know full well why they don't. [p] Your misrepresentation on this issue is appalling. As have been your clearly intended insults. Still, at least you've not fallaciously accused me of being a BNP member on this thread, yet.[/p][/quote]I was merely stating the obvious which is that the Welfare, Healthcare and Education are more generous on the continent, you are correct most Europeans do not live in Germany and France only a third of the total. The UK is a prime destination for immigration for 2 reasons: 1- Britain had a huge Empire, and former colonies therefore provide a huge numbers of migrants. 2- Britain is easier to reach and settle than in other Europeans countries, less beaucratic, less police and border controls.[/p][/quote]Do you actually believe the things you write? I mean, seriously, you've just posted lie after lie after lie. Either you're monumentally misinformed, or you actually know your claims to be incorrect before you post them: [p] 1. The biggest numbers of immigrants to the UK from the EU do not come from former British colony nations. [p] 2. How can Britain, an island, be 'far easier to reach' for anyone who lives on mainland Europe? [quote] I was merely stating the obvious which is that the Welfare, Healthcare and Education are more generous on the continent [/quote] Which is not only incorrect, it's not even 'obvious'. Yes, a couple of EU nations have benefits system that are broadly as generous as outs. Yes, one or two EU nations have better free healthcare. But to suggest that 'welfare, healthcare and education are more generous on the contintent' is disingenous in the extreme. [p] I'll ask again: if what you claim was actually true, why doesn't just about everyone on benefits in the UK simply move a couple of hundreds miles across the channel and immediately receive more money, better healthcare and better education for their children? Tim Newroman
  • Score: 0

5:36pm Thu 24 Jan 13

RichardR1 says...

Baron surely you are not serious. The issue is with the EU, not Colonialism. Over 500 million EU citizens have the absolute right to come to the UK because we are part of the EU. Of course the wealthy countries are not going to come here on mass, but the Eastern block countries have and will continue to do so, with the EU encouraging them not to stop on mainland Europe but to come here.

Which leads me on to your second point, as they are mainly Eastern Europeans, please explain how it's easier to come here. We actually have more border controls as we are not part of Schengen.

We are as bureaucratic but migrants are provided with people to fill in all the forms for them and help them through the maze.

As for health etc, they are only more generous if you can get them but the rest of wealthy Europe doesn't allow it hence they come here, and lets not forget after just 3 months in the UK the Romanians and Hungarians will also be entitled to all the benefits.

As for the French and NATO I found this and other little jokes about their return.

Why don't they have fireworks at Euro Disney?
Because every time they shoot them off, the French try to surrender.


Read more: http://www.dailymail
.co.uk/news/article-
1161642/As-France-re
joins-NATO-humorous-
reminder-missed-them
.html#ixzz2IuoReNya
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Baron surely you are not serious. The issue is with the EU, not Colonialism. Over 500 million EU citizens have the absolute right to come to the UK because we are part of the EU. Of course the wealthy countries are not going to come here on mass, but the Eastern block countries have and will continue to do so, with the EU encouraging them not to stop on mainland Europe but to come here. Which leads me on to your second point, as they are mainly Eastern Europeans, please explain how it's easier to come here. We actually have more border controls as we are not part of Schengen. We are as bureaucratic but migrants are provided with people to fill in all the forms for them and help them through the maze. As for health etc, they are only more generous if you can get them but the rest of wealthy Europe doesn't allow it hence they come here, and lets not forget after just 3 months in the UK the Romanians and Hungarians will also be entitled to all the benefits. As for the French and NATO I found this and other little jokes about their return. Why don't they have fireworks at Euro Disney? Because every time they shoot them off, the French try to surrender. Read more: http://www.dailymail .co.uk/news/article- 1161642/As-France-re joins-NATO-humorous- reminder-missed-them .html#ixzz2IuoReNya Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook RichardR1
  • Score: 0

6:21pm Thu 24 Jan 13

LordAshOfTheBrake says...

The Artist formally known as Grumpy Old Man wrote:
LordAshOfTheBrake wrote:
@house on the hill

The three makes I mentioned are predominantly manufacturer in Germany (at least that's my understanding) which is why I singled them out as opposed to Honda, Nissan, Ford and a number of others that do manufacture in the UK. Only the Mini is manufactured in the UK from BMW's fleet (to the best of my knowledge and that's only a legacy to Mini's origins) and there are more 3 series on the roads than Mini's.


The underlying point is though (and I didn't make it clear), that if people don't buy stuff made in Britian (not necessarily British company) they are helping other economies improve by supporting jobs in those countries. Yet they complain about the British economy and how bad things are.


I think the only major economy in Europe which is not in recession in Germany.
My Volkswagen was built in Portugal... Just saying.... :)
@The Artist formally known as Grumpy Old Man

So your supporting manufacturing jobs in Portugal and the money eventually ends up in Germany with your Volkswagon. :)

The point being made is the same though and relates to not supporting onshore manufacturing jobs and the local economy.


When it comes to food purchasing some of those attitudes are changing and people are looking at locally grown stuff. People need to start looking wider though and understand the impact that they make on the economy.
[quote][p][bold]The Artist formally known as Grumpy Old Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]LordAshOfTheBrake[/bold] wrote: @house on the hill The three makes I mentioned are predominantly manufacturer in Germany (at least that's my understanding) which is why I singled them out as opposed to Honda, Nissan, Ford and a number of others that do manufacture in the UK. Only the Mini is manufactured in the UK from BMW's fleet (to the best of my knowledge and that's only a legacy to Mini's origins) and there are more 3 series on the roads than Mini's. The underlying point is though (and I didn't make it clear), that if people don't buy stuff made in Britian (not necessarily British company) they are helping other economies improve by supporting jobs in those countries. Yet they complain about the British economy and how bad things are. I think the only major economy in Europe which is not in recession in Germany.[/p][/quote]My Volkswagen was built in Portugal... Just saying.... :)[/p][/quote]@The Artist formally known as Grumpy Old Man So your supporting manufacturing jobs in Portugal and the money eventually ends up in Germany with your Volkswagon. :) The point being made is the same though and relates to not supporting onshore manufacturing jobs and the local economy. When it comes to food purchasing some of those attitudes are changing and people are looking at locally grown stuff. People need to start looking wider though and understand the impact that they make on the economy. LordAshOfTheBrake
  • Score: 0

6:27pm Thu 24 Jan 13

Fox in Exile says...

EU referendum if "Call me Dave" wins the election and If terms can be re negotiated. If guess that's a no on two counts
EU referendum if "Call me Dave" wins the election and If terms can be re negotiated. If guess that's a no on two counts Fox in Exile
  • Score: 0

9:13pm Thu 24 Jan 13

semitonic says...

RichardR1 says... "Read more: http://www.dailymail
..."

I think that says it all about old robbo.
RichardR1 says... "Read more: http://www.dailymail ..." I think that says it all about old robbo. semitonic
  • Score: 0

10:22pm Thu 24 Jan 13

itsamess3 says...

Paul Ormond, the general manager for corporate affairs at Honda UK, the sales arm of Honda, confirmed that the Japanese carmaker was committed to the plant at South Marston, regardless of the outcome of any referendum.

He said: “It’s not the case if it goes one way or another, Honda will decide to take a certain course of action. We will manage our business regardless of what’s decided by the British Government and British people.
Guess you missed that bobby
Paul Ormond, the general manager for corporate affairs at Honda UK, the sales arm of Honda, confirmed that the Japanese carmaker was committed to the plant at South Marston, regardless of the outcome of any referendum. He said: “It’s not the case if it goes one way or another, Honda will decide to take a certain course of action. We will manage our business regardless of what’s decided by the British Government and British people. Guess you missed that bobby itsamess3
  • Score: 0

12:21am Fri 25 Jan 13

southside7 says...

Leaving the EU could be the death knell for this country. The growing economies, Brazil, China, India want to do business with the EU. A vote shouldn't be allowed. People will vote with their NIMBY, ill-informed, misguided patriotism and vote NO, rather than what's in the best interest for this country, which is growth. An unmitigated diaster awaits if the Tories win the next election.
Leaving the EU could be the death knell for this country. The growing economies, Brazil, China, India want to do business with the EU. A vote shouldn't be allowed. People will vote with their NIMBY, ill-informed, misguided patriotism and vote NO, rather than what's in the best interest for this country, which is growth. An unmitigated diaster awaits if the Tories win the next election. southside7
  • Score: 0

6:59am Fri 25 Jan 13

house on the hill says...

Lord Ash, buying locally has its own problems. If we buy British then the germans buy german, the french buy french etc and no one buys our exports which we need to survive. As with everything in life it all about balance. We need fair trading rules, but not a federal Europe where the strong make the rules and the weak leech off everyone else. I buy some local things and some from overseas, usually because it it beter value, the same reason we would expect others to buy our goods. we just ned to start making better things.
Lord Ash, buying locally has its own problems. If we buy British then the germans buy german, the french buy french etc and no one buys our exports which we need to survive. As with everything in life it all about balance. We need fair trading rules, but not a federal Europe where the strong make the rules and the weak leech off everyone else. I buy some local things and some from overseas, usually because it it beter value, the same reason we would expect others to buy our goods. we just ned to start making better things. house on the hill
  • Score: 0

8:00am Fri 25 Jan 13

LordAshOfTheBrake says...

@house on the hill

My understanding is that in France and Germany, there is a much higher rate of buying locally than their is in the UK; so it could be argued that they already do.

There are many people who complain about manufacturing jobs and industries in the UK and their not being enough done, but the first thing they do when they want something is dismiss British and buy elsewhere.
@house on the hill My understanding is that in France and Germany, there is a much higher rate of buying locally than their is in the UK; so it could be argued that they already do. There are many people who complain about manufacturing jobs and industries in the UK and their not being enough done, but the first thing they do when they want something is dismiss British and buy elsewhere. LordAshOfTheBrake
  • Score: 0

8:08am Fri 25 Jan 13

LordAshOfTheBrake says...

southside7 wrote:
Leaving the EU could be the death knell for this country. The growing economies, Brazil, China, India want to do business with the EU. A vote shouldn't be allowed. People will vote with their NIMBY, ill-informed, misguided patriotism and vote NO, rather than what's in the best interest for this country, which is growth. An unmitigated diaster awaits if the Tories win the next election.
As opposed to politicians who think they know best because it suits their political agenda and not the countries. Many people in Europe were denied a vote of further integration and quite a few of those who did, were told to vote again until the right result came along!

There are a number of other countries who would like to loosen their ties to Europe and they are waiting in the wings to see what happens if the UK does so.

Your right to think that many people will vote based on misinformation etc; however you have to ask where that information comes from.

Both sides in the debate will be polarized and presenting misinformation to suit their end game. That is what politics has become.
[quote][p][bold]southside7[/bold] wrote: Leaving the EU could be the death knell for this country. The growing economies, Brazil, China, India want to do business with the EU. A vote shouldn't be allowed. People will vote with their NIMBY, ill-informed, misguided patriotism and vote NO, rather than what's in the best interest for this country, which is growth. An unmitigated diaster awaits if the Tories win the next election.[/p][/quote]As opposed to politicians who think they know best because it suits their political agenda and not the countries. Many people in Europe were denied a vote of further integration and quite a few of those who did, were told to vote again until the right result came along! There are a number of other countries who would like to loosen their ties to Europe and they are waiting in the wings to see what happens if the UK does so. Your right to think that many people will vote based on misinformation etc; however you have to ask where that information comes from. Both sides in the debate will be polarized and presenting misinformation to suit their end game. That is what politics has become. LordAshOfTheBrake
  • Score: 0

8:53am Fri 25 Jan 13

Tim Newroman says...

southside7 wrote:
Leaving the EU could be the death knell for this country. The growing economies, Brazil, China, India want to do business with the EU. A vote shouldn't be allowed. People will vote with their NIMBY, ill-informed, misguided patriotism and vote NO, rather than what's in the best interest for this country, which is growth. An unmitigated diaster awaits if the Tories win the next election.
Sadly, this says it all about the Left-wing ideology... very happy to allow people to vote and have democracy when things go their way, all too keen to deny the public a say and thwart democracy when things don't go their way.

Yes, the public can sometimes make very, very bad decisions - the nation voted Labour in three times in row, remember - but that's democracy for you... 'The worst possible system, until you consider the alternatives'.
[quote][p][bold]southside7[/bold] wrote: Leaving the EU could be the death knell for this country. The growing economies, Brazil, China, India want to do business with the EU. A vote shouldn't be allowed. People will vote with their NIMBY, ill-informed, misguided patriotism and vote NO, rather than what's in the best interest for this country, which is growth. An unmitigated diaster awaits if the Tories win the next election.[/p][/quote]Sadly, this says it all about the Left-wing ideology... very happy to allow people to vote and have democracy when things go their way, all too keen to deny the public a say and thwart democracy when things don't go their way. [p] Yes, the public can sometimes make very, very bad decisions - the nation voted Labour in three times in row, remember - but that's democracy for you... 'The worst possible system, until you consider the alternatives'. Tim Newroman
  • Score: 0

9:07am Fri 25 Jan 13

A.Baron-Cohen says...

RichardR1 wrote:
Baron surely you are not serious. The issue is with the EU, not Colonialism. Over 500 million EU citizens have the absolute right to come to the UK because we are part of the EU. Of course the wealthy countries are not going to come here on mass, but the Eastern block countries have and will continue to do so, with the EU encouraging them not to stop on mainland Europe but to come here.

Which leads me on to your second point, as they are mainly Eastern Europeans, please explain how it's easier to come here. We actually have more border controls as we are not part of Schengen.

We are as bureaucratic but migrants are provided with people to fill in all the forms for them and help them through the maze.

As for health etc, they are only more generous if you can get them but the rest of wealthy Europe doesn't allow it hence they come here, and lets not forget after just 3 months in the UK the Romanians and Hungarians will also be entitled to all the benefits.

As for the French and NATO I found this and other little jokes about their return.

Why don't they have fireworks at Euro Disney?
Because every time they shoot them off, the French try to surrender.


Read more: http://www.dailymail

.co.uk/news/article-

1161642/As-France-re

joins-NATO-humorous-

reminder-missed-them

.html#ixzz2IuoReNya
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Theresa May latest figures show that less than 30% of immigrants are from the EU
[quote][p][bold]RichardR1[/bold] wrote: Baron surely you are not serious. The issue is with the EU, not Colonialism. Over 500 million EU citizens have the absolute right to come to the UK because we are part of the EU. Of course the wealthy countries are not going to come here on mass, but the Eastern block countries have and will continue to do so, with the EU encouraging them not to stop on mainland Europe but to come here. Which leads me on to your second point, as they are mainly Eastern Europeans, please explain how it's easier to come here. We actually have more border controls as we are not part of Schengen. We are as bureaucratic but migrants are provided with people to fill in all the forms for them and help them through the maze. As for health etc, they are only more generous if you can get them but the rest of wealthy Europe doesn't allow it hence they come here, and lets not forget after just 3 months in the UK the Romanians and Hungarians will also be entitled to all the benefits. As for the French and NATO I found this and other little jokes about their return. Why don't they have fireworks at Euro Disney? Because every time they shoot them off, the French try to surrender. Read more: http://www.dailymail .co.uk/news/article- 1161642/As-France-re joins-NATO-humorous- reminder-missed-them .html#ixzz2IuoReNya Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook[/p][/quote]Theresa May latest figures show that less than 30% of immigrants are from the EU A.Baron-Cohen
  • Score: 0

9:57am Fri 25 Jan 13

Empty Car Park says...

There won't be a referendum.

Cameron "promises" a referendum in the hope it will win votes.

Once elected, that promise will be reinterpreted/delaye
d etc

Labour won't offer the referendum because it's a Tory "policy"

If Cameron desired a referendum. We would have had one already. Not a shady promise of one, five years into the future
There won't be a referendum. Cameron "promises" a referendum in the hope it will win votes. Once elected, that promise will be reinterpreted/delaye d etc Labour won't offer the referendum because it's a Tory "policy" If Cameron desired a referendum. We would have had one already. Not a shady promise of one, five years into the future Empty Car Park
  • Score: 0

10:11am Fri 25 Jan 13

benzss says...

https://www.cia.gov/
library/publications
/the-world-factbook/
rankorder/2112rank.h
tml
https://www.cia.gov/ library/publications /the-world-factbook/ rankorder/2112rank.h tml benzss
  • Score: 0

11:09am Fri 25 Jan 13

The Artist formally known as Grumpy Old Man says...

LordAshOfTheBrake wrote:
The Artist formally known as Grumpy Old Man wrote:
LordAshOfTheBrake wrote:
@house on the hill

The three makes I mentioned are predominantly manufacturer in Germany (at least that's my understanding) which is why I singled them out as opposed to Honda, Nissan, Ford and a number of others that do manufacture in the UK. Only the Mini is manufactured in the UK from BMW's fleet (to the best of my knowledge and that's only a legacy to Mini's origins) and there are more 3 series on the roads than Mini's.


The underlying point is though (and I didn't make it clear), that if people don't buy stuff made in Britian (not necessarily British company) they are helping other economies improve by supporting jobs in those countries. Yet they complain about the British economy and how bad things are.


I think the only major economy in Europe which is not in recession in Germany.
My Volkswagen was built in Portugal... Just saying.... :)
@The Artist formally known as Grumpy Old Man

So your supporting manufacturing jobs in Portugal and the money eventually ends up in Germany with your Volkswagon. :)

The point being made is the same though and relates to not supporting onshore manufacturing jobs and the local economy.


When it comes to food purchasing some of those attitudes are changing and people are looking at locally grown stuff. People need to start looking wider though and understand the impact that they make on the economy.
You'll really hate me now then :) - I don't have the Volkswagen any more, and my current car was made in Japan. My other car was made in Korea.

I'm all for supporting the local economy, but buying a British car to my own detriment seems silly. I had British cars for the last 20 years (Rover/MG mainly), but Britain simply doesn't produce a car that is both suitable for my requirements and interests me any more...
[quote][p][bold]LordAshOfTheBrake[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]The Artist formally known as Grumpy Old Man[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]LordAshOfTheBrake[/bold] wrote: @house on the hill The three makes I mentioned are predominantly manufacturer in Germany (at least that's my understanding) which is why I singled them out as opposed to Honda, Nissan, Ford and a number of others that do manufacture in the UK. Only the Mini is manufactured in the UK from BMW's fleet (to the best of my knowledge and that's only a legacy to Mini's origins) and there are more 3 series on the roads than Mini's. The underlying point is though (and I didn't make it clear), that if people don't buy stuff made in Britian (not necessarily British company) they are helping other economies improve by supporting jobs in those countries. Yet they complain about the British economy and how bad things are. I think the only major economy in Europe which is not in recession in Germany.[/p][/quote]My Volkswagen was built in Portugal... Just saying.... :)[/p][/quote]@The Artist formally known as Grumpy Old Man So your supporting manufacturing jobs in Portugal and the money eventually ends up in Germany with your Volkswagon. :) The point being made is the same though and relates to not supporting onshore manufacturing jobs and the local economy. When it comes to food purchasing some of those attitudes are changing and people are looking at locally grown stuff. People need to start looking wider though and understand the impact that they make on the economy.[/p][/quote]You'll really hate me now then :) - I don't have the Volkswagen any more, and my current car was made in Japan. My other car was made in Korea. I'm all for supporting the local economy, but buying a British car to my own detriment seems silly. I had British cars for the last 20 years (Rover/MG mainly), but Britain simply doesn't produce a car that is both suitable for my requirements and interests me any more... The Artist formally known as Grumpy Old Man
  • Score: 0

11:51am Fri 25 Jan 13

RichardR1 says...

So dozens of posts and the stalking Nuclear Delusional Scientist just picks on mine.

I think that really does sum him up. Obsessed.

Anyway Paul said this, 'Paul Ormond, the general manager for corporate affairs at Honda UK, the sales arm of Honda, confirmed that the Japanese carmaker was committed to the plant at South Marston, regardless of the outcome of any referendum.' Now that to me they are not going anywhere, the point I made.
So dozens of posts and the stalking Nuclear Delusional Scientist just picks on mine. I think that really does sum him up. Obsessed. Anyway Paul said this, 'Paul Ormond, the general manager for corporate affairs at Honda UK, the sales arm of Honda, confirmed that the Japanese carmaker was committed to the plant at South Marston, regardless of the outcome of any referendum.' Now that to me they are not going anywhere, the point I made. RichardR1
  • Score: 0

12:38pm Fri 25 Jan 13

LordAshOfTheBrake says...

@The Artist

Cars are only one example and an appropriate one to Swindon due to the Honda situation.

All I'm saying is that people when complaining about the economy and how things are not getting better and there are more job losses; they should look at some of their life style choices too and see if they are doing their bit to help.
@The Artist Cars are only one example and an appropriate one to Swindon due to the Honda situation. All I'm saying is that people when complaining about the economy and how things are not getting better and there are more job losses; they should look at some of their life style choices too and see if they are doing their bit to help. LordAshOfTheBrake
  • Score: 0

1:35pm Fri 25 Jan 13

Tim Newroman says...

A.Baron-Cohen wrote:
RichardR1 wrote:
Baron surely you are not serious. The issue is with the EU, not Colonialism. Over 500 million EU citizens have the absolute right to come to the UK because we are part of the EU. Of course the wealthy countries are not going to come here on mass, but the Eastern block countries have and will continue to do so, with the EU encouraging them not to stop on mainland Europe but to come here.

Which leads me on to your second point, as they are mainly Eastern Europeans, please explain how it's easier to come here. We actually have more border controls as we are not part of Schengen.

We are as bureaucratic but migrants are provided with people to fill in all the forms for them and help them through the maze.

As for health etc, they are only more generous if you can get them but the rest of wealthy Europe doesn't allow it hence they come here, and lets not forget after just 3 months in the UK the Romanians and Hungarians will also be entitled to all the benefits.

As for the French and NATO I found this and other little jokes about their return.

Why don't they have fireworks at Euro Disney?
Because every time they shoot them off, the French try to surrender.


Read more: http://www.dailymail


.co.uk/news/article-


1161642/As-France-re


joins-NATO-humorous-


reminder-missed-them


.html#ixzz2IuoReNya
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Theresa May latest figures show that less than 30% of immigrants are from the EU
Maybe so, but that still represents 3 million people who've arrived here from the EU - and almost entirely from relatively poor eastern European countries - within the last 10 years.

Also, the problem is the demographic that's arriving. I've not seen numerous rich Germans and Norwegians working in pubs and fast food restaurants, have you?

As for non-EU immigrants have been arriving here over at least 50 years, so the situation is very different.
[quote][p][bold]A.Baron-Cohen[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]RichardR1[/bold] wrote: Baron surely you are not serious. The issue is with the EU, not Colonialism. Over 500 million EU citizens have the absolute right to come to the UK because we are part of the EU. Of course the wealthy countries are not going to come here on mass, but the Eastern block countries have and will continue to do so, with the EU encouraging them not to stop on mainland Europe but to come here. Which leads me on to your second point, as they are mainly Eastern Europeans, please explain how it's easier to come here. We actually have more border controls as we are not part of Schengen. We are as bureaucratic but migrants are provided with people to fill in all the forms for them and help them through the maze. As for health etc, they are only more generous if you can get them but the rest of wealthy Europe doesn't allow it hence they come here, and lets not forget after just 3 months in the UK the Romanians and Hungarians will also be entitled to all the benefits. As for the French and NATO I found this and other little jokes about their return. Why don't they have fireworks at Euro Disney? Because every time they shoot them off, the French try to surrender. Read more: http://www.dailymail .co.uk/news/article- 1161642/As-France-re joins-NATO-humorous- reminder-missed-them .html#ixzz2IuoReNya Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook[/p][/quote]Theresa May latest figures show that less than 30% of immigrants are from the EU[/p][/quote]Maybe so, but that still represents 3 million people who've arrived here from the EU - and almost entirely from relatively poor eastern European countries - within the last 10 years. [p] Also, the problem is the demographic that's arriving. I've not seen numerous rich Germans and Norwegians working in pubs and fast food restaurants, have you? [p] As for non-EU immigrants have been arriving here over at least 50 years, so the situation is very different. Tim Newroman
  • Score: 0

1:48pm Fri 25 Jan 13

house on the hill says...

I am still not sure that wouldnt lead to more problems. If eveyone in this country dtopped buying german cars for expample, do the think the Germans would stand by and let it happen or do something either to stop buying stuff from us or would reduce the prices on their cars so it would be stupid not to buy them. We are in a world economy so we need to look outwards as well as in. Also in a recession you are very much guided by price and value for money and cant always afford to pay more just because its british. Very few people look at the bigger picture and just look after themselves at that moment in time.

As for Honda, if they dont start changing and making cars to suit the market demands they wont need a plant anywhere. Civic's Accord's and Jazz's are old news now and many cars in their class are better and cheaper and even smaller, they are just being left behind.
I am still not sure that wouldnt lead to more problems. If eveyone in this country dtopped buying german cars for expample, do the think the Germans would stand by and let it happen or do something either to stop buying stuff from us or would reduce the prices on their cars so it would be stupid not to buy them. We are in a world economy so we need to look outwards as well as in. Also in a recession you are very much guided by price and value for money and cant always afford to pay more just because its british. Very few people look at the bigger picture and just look after themselves at that moment in time. As for Honda, if they dont start changing and making cars to suit the market demands they wont need a plant anywhere. Civic's Accord's and Jazz's are old news now and many cars in their class are better and cheaper and even smaller, they are just being left behind. house on the hill
  • Score: 0

2:43pm Fri 25 Jan 13

Tim Newroman says...

Empty Car Park wrote:
There won't be a referendum.

Cameron "promises" a referendum in the hope it will win votes.

Once elected, that promise will be reinterpreted/delaye

d etc

Labour won't offer the referendum because it's a Tory "policy"

If Cameron desired a referendum. We would have had one already. Not a shady promise of one, five years into the future
I agree with the majority of that. Certainly where Cameron's concerned.

Ed Miliband is vehemently pro-Europe, though, and so Labour won't hold a referendum because he'll be too scared the answer won't go his way. It has little to do with it being seen as a 'Tory policy' (which it isn't, it was Labour who first promised an EU referendum... but lied and denied the nation once they'd got back into power).
[quote][p][bold]Empty Car Park[/bold] wrote: There won't be a referendum. Cameron "promises" a referendum in the hope it will win votes. Once elected, that promise will be reinterpreted/delaye d etc Labour won't offer the referendum because it's a Tory "policy" If Cameron desired a referendum. We would have had one already. Not a shady promise of one, five years into the future[/p][/quote]I agree with the majority of that. Certainly where Cameron's concerned. [p] Ed Miliband is vehemently pro-Europe, though, and so Labour won't hold a referendum because he'll be too scared the answer won't go his way. It has little to do with it being seen as a 'Tory policy' (which it isn't, it was Labour who first promised an EU referendum... but lied and denied the nation once they'd got back into power). Tim Newroman
  • Score: 0

7:22pm Fri 25 Jan 13

itsamess3 says...

benzss I totally agree with your analysis. It was also nice to read that Honda have nailed once and for all the often claimed statement they would leave if we left the EU.

You really do need to understand english terms-your claim insinuates honda 'nailed' the often claimed statement--the appropriate remark would have been 'denied'
Now you have returned to your ridiculous claims that ukip "Davey hate to burst your bubble but at least 22,000 UKIP members would agree with Robfm's views and if surveys are true 65% of UK voters.”
Strange how so many support your views-yet you removed as party spokesperson-chairma
n and local eader and failed miserably in your attempt to get elected here.
Do remember you were openly exposed on these threads by the adver for claiming you were a correspondent on the SM site and could use your alternate login here.
All your favourite insults are there and intimate knowledge and mistakes abound that clearly identify you with all your favourite sayings.
Ukip have no MPs and a very few 'proportionate' of councillors-thus--no influence. If these 22000 members agree with you--your party is doomed to failure.
benzss I totally agree with your analysis. It was also nice to read that Honda have nailed once and for all the often claimed statement they would leave if we left the EU. You really do need to understand english terms-your claim insinuates honda 'nailed' the often claimed statement--the appropriate remark would have been 'denied' Now you have returned to your ridiculous claims that ukip "Davey hate to burst your bubble but at least 22,000 UKIP members would agree with Robfm's views and if surveys are true 65% of UK voters.” Strange how so many support your views-yet you removed as party spokesperson-chairma n and local eader and failed miserably in your attempt to get elected here. Do remember you were openly exposed on these threads by the adver for claiming you were a correspondent on the SM site and could use your alternate login here. All your favourite insults are there and intimate knowledge and mistakes abound that clearly identify you with all your favourite sayings. Ukip have no MPs and a very few 'proportionate' of councillors-thus--no influence. If these 22000 members agree with you--your party is doomed to failure. itsamess3
  • Score: 0

9:33am Sat 26 Jan 13

LordAshOfTheBrake says...

@itsamess3

All the comment from Honda says is that they wouldn't leave based on the referendum.

Quote "Paul Ormond, the general manager for corporate affairs at Honda UK, the sales arm of Honda, confirmed that the Japanese carmaker was committed to the plant at South Marston, regardless of the outcome of any referendum. "

It doesn't say that they wouldn't leave due to other factors.

Some of the rumours that seem to be circulating is that they are already looking at alternatives in cheaper parts of Europe.
@itsamess3 All the comment from Honda says is that they wouldn't leave based on the referendum. Quote "Paul Ormond, the general manager for corporate affairs at Honda UK, the sales arm of Honda, confirmed that the Japanese carmaker was committed to the plant at South Marston, regardless of the outcome of any referendum. " It doesn't say that they wouldn't leave due to other factors. Some of the rumours that seem to be circulating is that they are already looking at alternatives in cheaper parts of Europe. LordAshOfTheBrake
  • Score: 0

12:31pm Sat 26 Jan 13

itsamess3 says...

Lord ash
He said: “It’s not the case if it goes one way or another, Honda will decide to take a certain course of action. We will manage our business regardless of what’s decided by the British Government and British people.
Being based in europe 3 weeks out of 4 rumours abound as to empty car plants honda have shown an interest in to build the 'verity'. Do remember the time when plans were made to introduce one of their new smaller cars here on a new line-but chose to build it in china and import them here.
They key words being "We will manage our business regardless.....
The fact is being able to sell in a free market would benefit them.
Either way they will up/down production at will affecting many tied suppliers.
Lord ash He said: “It’s not the case if it goes one way or another, Honda will decide to take a certain course of action. We will manage our business regardless of what’s decided by the British Government and British people. Being based in europe 3 weeks out of 4 rumours abound as to empty car plants honda have shown an interest in to build the 'verity'. Do remember the time when plans were made to introduce one of their new smaller cars here on a new line-but chose to build it in china and import them here. They key words being "We will manage our business regardless..... The fact is being able to sell in a free market would benefit them. Either way they will up/down production at will affecting many tied suppliers. itsamess3
  • Score: 0

1:15pm Sat 26 Jan 13

itsamess3 says...

itsamess3 I think evryone now knows you are totally bonkers. Over 60 posts and you pick up on just two, and a brief reference to benzss.

Well--i post--if and when i have time on any comment there is an issue with-an opinion.
If I was who you suggest I would be posting this from Prison, well according to you not Swindon.
2 points-the relevent appeal is in the liting office of the CCA and anyone registered here can comment from anywhere.Please get a life away from your delusions.

"Isn't there a war you need to stop somewhere."
Another rather stupid remark.
itsamess3 I think evryone now knows you are totally bonkers. Over 60 posts and you pick up on just two, and a brief reference to benzss. Well--i post--if and when i have time on any comment there is an issue with-an opinion. If I was who you suggest I would be posting this from Prison, well according to you not Swindon. 2 points-the relevent appeal is in the liting office of the CCA and anyone registered here can comment from anywhere.Please get a life away from your delusions. "Isn't there a war you need to stop somewhere." Another rather stupid remark. itsamess3
  • Score: 0

11:39am Mon 28 Jan 13

Empty Car Park says...

Wow
Wow Empty Car Park
  • Score: 0

5:49pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Empty Car Park says...

Hardly
Hardly Empty Car Park
  • Score: 0

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