Cameron sparks unholy row over 'Christian' UK

This Is Wiltshire: Humanist Neil Davies Humanist Neil Davies

A DEBATE on the place of Christianity in 21st century Britain has sparked conflicting opinions in Swindon following David Cameron’s description of the UK as a Christian nation.

In an article published in Church Times earlier this month, the Prime Minister said the UK should be more confident about its status as a Christian country.

Mr Cameron said: “I believe we should be more confident about our status as a Christian country, more ambitious about expanding the role of faith-based organisations and, frankly, more evangelical about a faith that compels us to get out there and make a difference to people’s lives.”

His comments were heavily criticised by more than 50 authors and thinkers in an open letter to the Daily Telegraph, who branded them divisive and untrue in a largely ‘non-religious’ nation.

Their criticism has been echoed by the Swindon Humanists, who said introducing Christianity in the political debate was fraught and ignored other faiths and citizens with no religious beliefs.

“You can’t define the country in this narrow sense,” said Swindon Humanists co-chairman Neil Davies. “Half of the country has no religion at all which disproves the Christian country idea.

“Our concern is that David Cameron seems to be against a secular society.

“But a secular society is probably the best way to ensure that people of any religion or no religion are treated fairly.”

He added: “It is a little disappointing, more than surprising for us. People are free to believe in anything they want and not to believe in anything they like.”

Yet the Prime Minister’s view opened up a valuable debate according to the Reverend Tricia Roberts, associate minister at All Saints Church in Lydiard Millicent.

“In some ways Cameron was maybe encouraging the quieter Christians to allow their voice to be heard,” she said. “They are a majority but not as vocal as some minorities. His statement has created a reaction and he has made this statement in the midst of a society where speaking about religion is in some way a taboo. He has created a conversation. It’s probably a debate that we need to have.”

She added: “Our society is increasingly secular and there is an increase in diversity in religion and in the number of people who would not want to label themselves in any way shape or form. But if you look at the census many say they are Christian, more as a background or tradition than by practice.

“I think without an understanding of Christianity and Bible stories, you don’t understand our culture if you go to historic monuments or you won’t understand paintings and stories.”

Comments (31)

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3:18pm Tue 22 Apr 14

Wildwestener says...

It's a shame the debate has been hijacked by humanists and atheists who at times come across as anti-Christian/anti-
faith. I do find it weird how some people go to such lengths to have a go at some people's beliefs when it is at least as impossible to prove any deity doesn't exist as it is to prove it does.
If Cameron means a society in which people generally live a life on the basis of Christian ethos (love thy neighbour, do unto others as you would be done unto you etc) I can live with that despite not being Christian myself.
It's a shame the debate has been hijacked by humanists and atheists who at times come across as anti-Christian/anti- faith. I do find it weird how some people go to such lengths to have a go at some people's beliefs when it is at least as impossible to prove any deity doesn't exist as it is to prove it does. If Cameron means a society in which people generally live a life on the basis of Christian ethos (love thy neighbour, do unto others as you would be done unto you etc) I can live with that despite not being Christian myself. Wildwestener
  • Score: 21

3:48pm Tue 22 Apr 14

house on the hill says...

Wildwestener wrote:
It's a shame the debate has been hijacked by humanists and atheists who at times come across as anti-Christian/anti-

faith. I do find it weird how some people go to such lengths to have a go at some people's beliefs when it is at least as impossible to prove any deity doesn't exist as it is to prove it does.
If Cameron means a society in which people generally live a life on the basis of Christian ethos (love thy neighbour, do unto others as you would be done unto you etc) I can live with that despite not being Christian myself.
Interesting post on all points. I agree that the reality is that we just don't know but as someone who has chosen not to believe, it is those who do believe and insist they couldn't possibly be wrong and/or those who look down on me because i don't share their blind faith that I don't find very "Christian" at all!!
But I do disagree that many live their life in that ethos. When it comes down to it, far too many are me me me, want something for nothing and are very double standards in their approach and expect others to live to a far higher moral standards than they do or don't care about the bigger picture, just their own narrow little life (as evidenced on here time and again)!
Interesting statistic that less that 1 in 50 attend church on a regular basis, so not sure what that actually says about religion in this country.
[quote][p][bold]Wildwestener[/bold] wrote: It's a shame the debate has been hijacked by humanists and atheists who at times come across as anti-Christian/anti- faith. I do find it weird how some people go to such lengths to have a go at some people's beliefs when it is at least as impossible to prove any deity doesn't exist as it is to prove it does. If Cameron means a society in which people generally live a life on the basis of Christian ethos (love thy neighbour, do unto others as you would be done unto you etc) I can live with that despite not being Christian myself.[/p][/quote]Interesting post on all points. I agree that the reality is that we just don't know but as someone who has chosen not to believe, it is those who do believe and insist they couldn't possibly be wrong and/or those who look down on me because i don't share their blind faith that I don't find very "Christian" at all!! But I do disagree that many live their life in that ethos. When it comes down to it, far too many are me me me, want something for nothing and are very double standards in their approach and expect others to live to a far higher moral standards than they do or don't care about the bigger picture, just their own narrow little life (as evidenced on here time and again)! Interesting statistic that less that 1 in 50 attend church on a regular basis, so not sure what that actually says about religion in this country. house on the hill
  • Score: 0

3:50pm Tue 22 Apr 14

Swindon Humanists says...

You quote the Golden Rule which is of course part of the Christian ethos, but does not originate from it, it was around long before Christianity even began and is just as much part of many other faiths and non-religious approaches to life such as humanism.
You quote the Golden Rule which is of course part of the Christian ethos, but does not originate from it, it was around long before Christianity even began and is just as much part of many other faiths and non-religious approaches to life such as humanism. Swindon Humanists
  • Score: 13

4:12pm Tue 22 Apr 14

house on the hill says...

Swindon Humanists wrote:
You quote the Golden Rule which is of course part of the Christian ethos, but does not originate from it, it was around long before Christianity even began and is just as much part of many other faiths and non-religious approaches to life such as humanism.
I think a lot of people just don't spend time wondering where we came from or who we are or why we are here or what happens next, they just get on with the day to day living of a pretty short lifespan in the big scheme of things. I don't belong to any sort of "group" or "Belief System" I just make up my own mind. Religion and religious belief is the second biggest killer the world has ever known and that says it all for me.
[quote][p][bold]Swindon Humanists[/bold] wrote: You quote the Golden Rule which is of course part of the Christian ethos, but does not originate from it, it was around long before Christianity even began and is just as much part of many other faiths and non-religious approaches to life such as humanism.[/p][/quote]I think a lot of people just don't spend time wondering where we came from or who we are or why we are here or what happens next, they just get on with the day to day living of a pretty short lifespan in the big scheme of things. I don't belong to any sort of "group" or "Belief System" I just make up my own mind. Religion and religious belief is the second biggest killer the world has ever known and that says it all for me. house on the hill
  • Score: 9

4:40pm Tue 22 Apr 14

garth banks says...

We are not an un-christian country. The Queen is the defender of the faith. We allow and respect the faiths of other people. We do not force people to follow our religion. We acknowledge that there are those who do not believe in a supreme being, Belief in a supreme being is a matter of faith not proof.that there is one.
We are not an un-christian country. The Queen is the defender of the faith. We allow and respect the faiths of other people. We do not force people to follow our religion. We acknowledge that there are those who do not believe in a supreme being, Belief in a supreme being is a matter of faith not proof.that there is one. garth banks
  • Score: 0

4:52pm Tue 22 Apr 14

Chrisg46 says...

i think it all depends on how you define "we are a christian country" - our society morals and laws are based on what are generally accepted as Christian values so in that sense we are.
If however, you define as going to church every sunday, then clearly we are not.

-Other religions are available. No deity, imagined or otherwise was blasphemed or insulted during the writing of this comment.
i think it all depends on how you define "we are a christian country" - our society morals and laws are based on what are generally accepted as Christian values so in that sense we are. If however, you define as going to church every sunday, then clearly we are not. -Other religions are available. No deity, imagined or otherwise was blasphemed or insulted during the writing of this comment. Chrisg46
  • Score: 12

4:54pm Tue 22 Apr 14

stfcdod says...

We are a Christian country. End of debate.
We are a Christian country. End of debate. stfcdod
  • Score: -8

5:00pm Tue 22 Apr 14

Robh says...

Chrisg46 wrote:
i think it all depends on how you define "we are a christian country" - our society morals and laws are based on what are generally accepted as Christian values so in that sense we are.
If however, you define as going to church every sunday, then clearly we are not.

-Other religions are available. No deity, imagined or otherwise was blasphemed or insulted during the writing of this comment.
Agree completely. I am fed up with others telling us what someone else's comments mean just to cause friction and arguments.
[quote][p][bold]Chrisg46[/bold] wrote: i think it all depends on how you define "we are a christian country" - our society morals and laws are based on what are generally accepted as Christian values so in that sense we are. If however, you define as going to church every sunday, then clearly we are not. -Other religions are available. No deity, imagined or otherwise was blasphemed or insulted during the writing of this comment.[/p][/quote]Agree completely. I am fed up with others telling us what someone else's comments mean just to cause friction and arguments. Robh
  • Score: 4

5:26pm Tue 22 Apr 14

Alex English says...

stfcdod wrote:
We are a Christian country. End of debate.
Of the religions people follow in this country, it is a majority Christian country. That much is true.

However, far more people have no faith, and do not follow any particular religion, than do so.
[quote][p][bold]stfcdod[/bold] wrote: We are a Christian country. End of debate.[/p][/quote]Of the religions people follow in this country, it is a majority Christian country. That much is true. However, far more people have no faith, and do not follow any particular religion, than do so. Alex English
  • Score: 11

5:40pm Tue 22 Apr 14

Hmmmf says...

I can't think of a single historical precedent which shows that multicultural multi-faith communities can peacefully co-exist in the same space, much less function as a homogenous whole. If Cameron's remarks give people pause for thought and draw attention to threats of the kind posed by the Birmingham 'Trojan Horse' plot, then long may the debate continue.
I can't think of a single historical precedent which shows that multicultural multi-faith communities can peacefully co-exist in the same space, much less function as a homogenous whole. If Cameron's remarks give people pause for thought and draw attention to threats of the kind posed by the Birmingham 'Trojan Horse' plot, then long may the debate continue. Hmmmf
  • Score: 4

6:57pm Tue 22 Apr 14

TheManInBlack42 says...

Wildwestener wrote:
It's a shame the debate has been hijacked by humanists and atheists who at times come across as anti-Christian/anti- faith. I do find it weird how some people go to such lengths to have a go at some people's beliefs when it is at least as impossible to prove any deity doesn't exist as it is to prove it does. If Cameron means a society in which people generally live a life on the basis of Christian ethos (love thy neighbour, do unto others as you would be done unto you etc) I can live with that despite not being Christian myself.
By "hijacked" do you mean they have the stronger arguments, or are you expecting the "debate" to be a one-sided affair where Mr Cameron is allowed to impose his religion on the majority of people in the country who do not share his beliefs?

The values you describe are undoubtedly shared by mainstream Christians but they are shared by those of many other faiths and of none. Christianity embraced those values; it did not invent them and it certainly has no monopoly on them. Rather than a Christian ethos I'd view them as part of a shared Human ethos.
[quote][p][bold]Wildwestener[/bold] wrote: It's a shame the debate has been hijacked by humanists and atheists who at times come across as anti-Christian/anti- faith. I do find it weird how some people go to such lengths to have a go at some people's beliefs when it is at least as impossible to prove any deity doesn't exist as it is to prove it does. If Cameron means a society in which people generally live a life on the basis of Christian ethos (love thy neighbour, do unto others as you would be done unto you etc) I can live with that despite not being Christian myself.[/p][/quote]By "hijacked" do you mean they have the stronger arguments, or are you expecting the "debate" to be a one-sided affair where Mr Cameron is allowed to impose his religion on the majority of people in the country who do not share his beliefs? The values you describe are undoubtedly shared by mainstream Christians but they are shared by those of many other faiths and of none. Christianity embraced those values; it did not invent them and it certainly has no monopoly on them. Rather than a Christian ethos I'd view them as part of a shared Human ethos. TheManInBlack42
  • Score: 3

7:14pm Tue 22 Apr 14

The Real Librarian says...

house on the hill wrote:
Wildwestener wrote:
It's a shame the debate has been hijacked by humanists and atheists who at times come across as anti-Christian/anti-


faith. I do find it weird how some people go to such lengths to have a go at some people's beliefs when it is at least as impossible to prove any deity doesn't exist as it is to prove it does.
If Cameron means a society in which people generally live a life on the basis of Christian ethos (love thy neighbour, do unto others as you would be done unto you etc) I can live with that despite not being Christian myself.
Interesting post on all points. I agree that the reality is that we just don't know but as someone who has chosen not to believe, it is those who do believe and insist they couldn't possibly be wrong and/or those who look down on me because i don't share their blind faith that I don't find very "Christian" at all!!
But I do disagree that many live their life in that ethos. When it comes down to it, far too many are me me me, want something for nothing and are very double standards in their approach and expect others to live to a far higher moral standards than they do or don't care about the bigger picture, just their own narrow little life (as evidenced on here time and again)!
Interesting statistic that less that 1 in 50 attend church on a regular basis, so not sure what that actually says about religion in this country.
It means that most people who say they are Christian, aren't
[quote][p][bold]house on the hill[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Wildwestener[/bold] wrote: It's a shame the debate has been hijacked by humanists and atheists who at times come across as anti-Christian/anti- faith. I do find it weird how some people go to such lengths to have a go at some people's beliefs when it is at least as impossible to prove any deity doesn't exist as it is to prove it does. If Cameron means a society in which people generally live a life on the basis of Christian ethos (love thy neighbour, do unto others as you would be done unto you etc) I can live with that despite not being Christian myself.[/p][/quote]Interesting post on all points. I agree that the reality is that we just don't know but as someone who has chosen not to believe, it is those who do believe and insist they couldn't possibly be wrong and/or those who look down on me because i don't share their blind faith that I don't find very "Christian" at all!! But I do disagree that many live their life in that ethos. When it comes down to it, far too many are me me me, want something for nothing and are very double standards in their approach and expect others to live to a far higher moral standards than they do or don't care about the bigger picture, just their own narrow little life (as evidenced on here time and again)! Interesting statistic that less that 1 in 50 attend church on a regular basis, so not sure what that actually says about religion in this country.[/p][/quote]It means that most people who say they are Christian, aren't The Real Librarian
  • Score: 0

7:17pm Tue 22 Apr 14

Swindon Humanists says...

Alex English wrote:
stfcdod wrote:
We are a Christian country. End of debate.
Of the religions people follow in this country, it is a majority Christian country. That much is true.

However, far more people have no faith, and do not follow any particular religion, than do so.
Absolutely. Even if you use the flawed census statistics, to claim we are a Christian country because the majority are Christian is just as wrong as saying we are a white country because the majority of people are white.
[quote][p][bold]Alex English[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]stfcdod[/bold] wrote: We are a Christian country. End of debate.[/p][/quote]Of the religions people follow in this country, it is a majority Christian country. That much is true. However, far more people have no faith, and do not follow any particular religion, than do so.[/p][/quote]Absolutely. Even if you use the flawed census statistics, to claim we are a Christian country because the majority are Christian is just as wrong as saying we are a white country because the majority of people are white. Swindon Humanists
  • Score: 3

7:17pm Tue 22 Apr 14

The Real Librarian says...

stfcdod wrote:
We are a Christian country. End of debate.
Based on numbers, we are an atheist country.
[quote][p][bold]stfcdod[/bold] wrote: We are a Christian country. End of debate.[/p][/quote]Based on numbers, we are an atheist country. The Real Librarian
  • Score: 4

7:48pm Tue 22 Apr 14

martinswindon says...

It's always rather strange that humanists and atheists seems more obsessed with God than those of faith actually are!

That said there is a rather twisted irony that someone like David Cameron would choose to put the Christian flag in the ground for the Christians of the UK.

Didn't his government just force through gay marriage laws, despite the massive opposition and despite this being very much anti-Christian?
It's always rather strange that humanists and atheists seems more obsessed with God than those of faith actually are! That said there is a rather twisted irony that someone like David Cameron would choose to put the Christian flag in the ground for the Christians of the UK. Didn't his government just force through gay marriage laws, despite the massive opposition and despite this being very much anti-Christian? martinswindon
  • Score: 0

8:12pm Tue 22 Apr 14

southside7 says...

Oak tree forms from an acorn. Think of the intelligence involved, I mean 'really' think. These are not accidents....hey 'you' do the math.
Oak tree forms from an acorn. Think of the intelligence involved, I mean 'really' think. These are not accidents....hey 'you' do the math. southside7
  • Score: -9

8:30pm Tue 22 Apr 14

MrAngry says...

In a radio interview a few years ago, Prof Brian Cox was asked if he was an atheist. He replied that he was in the sense that he didn't believe in god, but objected to being called an atheist as he disliked being labelled on the basis on something that he rarely thought about.

It is unusual to be labelled on basis on what you aren't rather than what you are. A philatelist collects stamps, but there is no label for someone who doesn't collect stamps.

I am British by birth and an atheist by choice. Religion is a matter of choice, so I don't see how David Cameron can describe this as a Christian country.

Describing Britain as a Christian country is offensive to those who aren't Christians. Someone who believes in god (any god) will obviously take their faith seriously as the presence of a supreme being will be a big deal to them. But, for anyone who doesn't believe in god, religion has zero value. It is pure fiction.

David Cameron's faith is obviously very important to him, but to many of us it is utterly meaningless. For him to describe my country of birth as a nation of Christians is not something that I recognise or can even remotely relate to.
In a radio interview a few years ago, Prof Brian Cox was asked if he was an atheist. He replied that he was in the sense that he didn't believe in god, but objected to being called an atheist as he disliked being labelled on the basis on something that he rarely thought about. It is unusual to be labelled on basis on what you aren't rather than what you are. A philatelist collects stamps, but there is no label for someone who doesn't collect stamps. I am British by birth and an atheist by choice. Religion is a matter of choice, so I don't see how David Cameron can describe this as a Christian country. Describing Britain as a Christian country is offensive to those who aren't Christians. Someone who believes in god (any god) will obviously take their faith seriously as the presence of a supreme being will be a big deal to them. But, for anyone who doesn't believe in god, religion has zero value. It is pure fiction. David Cameron's faith is obviously very important to him, but to many of us it is utterly meaningless. For him to describe my country of birth as a nation of Christians is not something that I recognise or can even remotely relate to. MrAngry
  • Score: 5

8:39pm Tue 22 Apr 14

MrAngry says...

southside7 wrote:
Oak tree forms from an acorn. Think of the intelligence involved, I mean 'really' think. These are not accidents....hey 'you' do the math.
I think the math supports the evolution theory.

The acorn is one successful mutation which stands out against the trillions and trillions of failed mutations. Look at the acorn in isolation and it appears to be a miracle. Look at it as a miniscule success vastly outnumbered by failure and it becomes a probable outcome.
[quote][p][bold]southside7[/bold] wrote: Oak tree forms from an acorn. Think of the intelligence involved, I mean 'really' think. These are not accidents....hey 'you' do the math.[/p][/quote]I think the math supports the evolution theory. The acorn is one successful mutation which stands out against the trillions and trillions of failed mutations. Look at the acorn in isolation and it appears to be a miracle. Look at it as a miniscule success vastly outnumbered by failure and it becomes a probable outcome. MrAngry
  • Score: 4

8:39pm Tue 22 Apr 14

Davey Gravey says...

People who believe in gods are a bit mental. Sometimes alot mental
People who believe in gods are a bit mental. Sometimes alot mental Davey Gravey
  • Score: 6

8:54pm Tue 22 Apr 14

MrAngry says...

southside7 wrote:
Oak tree forms from an acorn. Think of the intelligence involved, I mean 'really' think. These are not accidents....hey 'you' do the math.
The intelligent design argument also raises more questions than it answers.

If an acorn is such a miracle that it can't have evolved and must have been designed then who created the creator.

How did god happen to exist? Did god evolve or was he (or she) created by an even more supreme being? If you can believe that god just exists, but an acorn is so incredible that it must have been designed, you seem to be arguing that an acorn is more miraculous than god.

Your solution is more incredible than the problem that it attempts to solve.
[quote][p][bold]southside7[/bold] wrote: Oak tree forms from an acorn. Think of the intelligence involved, I mean 'really' think. These are not accidents....hey 'you' do the math.[/p][/quote]The intelligent design argument also raises more questions than it answers. If an acorn is such a miracle that it can't have evolved and must have been designed then who created the creator. How did god happen to exist? Did god evolve or was he (or she) created by an even more supreme being? If you can believe that god just exists, but an acorn is so incredible that it must have been designed, you seem to be arguing that an acorn is more miraculous than god. Your solution is more incredible than the problem that it attempts to solve. MrAngry
  • Score: 6

9:18pm Tue 22 Apr 14

The Real Librarian says...

Davey Gravey wrote:
People who believe in gods are a bit mental. Sometimes alot mental
Just because they have an invisble friend who talks to them in their head, why would you think that
[quote][p][bold]Davey Gravey[/bold] wrote: People who believe in gods are a bit mental. Sometimes alot mental[/p][/quote]Just because they have an invisble friend who talks to them in their head, why would you think that The Real Librarian
  • Score: 1

9:26pm Tue 22 Apr 14

MrAngry says...

stfcdod wrote:
We are a Christian country. End of debate.
I must have missed that referendum.
[quote][p][bold]stfcdod[/bold] wrote: We are a Christian country. End of debate.[/p][/quote]I must have missed that referendum. MrAngry
  • Score: 6

9:32pm Tue 22 Apr 14

TheManInBlack42 says...

southside7 wrote:
Oak tree forms from an acorn. Think of the intelligence involved, I mean 'really' think. These are not accidents....hey 'you' do the math.
I suspect you need to check your sums, however that's not really the argument that is the subject of this article.

Whether you believe in a god, or gods, or none, the point is really about whether Cameron is right in claiming that (a) this is a "Christian" country and that (b) the values it would like to think it holds stem from that Christianity.

He's peddling a poisonous message. Even if you take the last census figures at face value that suggests that over 40% of the people who expressed an opinion on religion don't belong here, as they are not Christian. If you ask more telling questions on what defines a Christian their numbers dwindle further, and have been steadily falling for many years as education prevails. His comments might also suggest that we of no religious belief are somehow immoral. His call for people to "evangalise" and to embed religious organisations further into the structute of British society can only further alienate those who do not share his superstitious beliefs.

We already have an alleged Muslim plot to takeover schools, while some taxpayer funded schools now have children pledging allegiance to Jesus Christ and promulgating creationist fundamentalism and exam questions that present awkward truths for some religious groups have been censored.

I want to see a Britain built not on some religious doctrine but on common human values of honesty, respect, decency and reason.
[quote][p][bold]southside7[/bold] wrote: Oak tree forms from an acorn. Think of the intelligence involved, I mean 'really' think. These are not accidents....hey 'you' do the math.[/p][/quote]I suspect you need to check your sums, however that's not really the argument that is the subject of this article. Whether you believe in a god, or gods, or none, the point is really about whether Cameron is right in claiming that (a) this is a "Christian" country and that (b) the values it would like to think it holds stem from that Christianity. He's peddling a poisonous message. Even if you take the last census figures at face value that suggests that over 40% of the people who expressed an opinion on religion don't belong here, as they are not Christian. If you ask more telling questions on what defines a Christian their numbers dwindle further, and have been steadily falling for many years as education prevails. His comments might also suggest that we of no religious belief are somehow immoral. His call for people to "evangalise" and to embed religious organisations further into the structute of British society can only further alienate those who do not share his superstitious beliefs. We already have an alleged Muslim plot to takeover schools, while some taxpayer funded schools now have children pledging allegiance to Jesus Christ and promulgating creationist fundamentalism and exam questions that present awkward truths for some religious groups have been censored. I want to see a Britain built not on some religious doctrine but on common human values of honesty, respect, decency and reason. TheManInBlack42
  • Score: 3

7:30am Wed 23 Apr 14

Wildwestener says...

TheManInBlack42 wrote:
Wildwestener wrote:
It's a shame the debate has been hijacked by humanists and atheists who at times come across as anti-Christian/anti- faith. I do find it weird how some people go to such lengths to have a go at some people's beliefs when it is at least as impossible to prove any deity doesn't exist as it is to prove it does. If Cameron means a society in which people generally live a life on the basis of Christian ethos (love thy neighbour, do unto others as you would be done unto you etc) I can live with that despite not being Christian myself.
By "hijacked" do you mean they have the stronger arguments, or are you expecting the "debate" to be a one-sided affair where Mr Cameron is allowed to impose his religion on the majority of people in the country who do not share his beliefs?

The values you describe are undoubtedly shared by mainstream Christians but they are shared by those of many other faiths and of none. Christianity embraced those values; it did not invent them and it certainly has no monopoly on them. Rather than a Christian ethos I'd view them as part of a shared Human ethos.
No, I mean a debate about whether we are a Christian country is not the same as a debate about whether God exists.
[quote][p][bold]TheManInBlack42[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Wildwestener[/bold] wrote: It's a shame the debate has been hijacked by humanists and atheists who at times come across as anti-Christian/anti- faith. I do find it weird how some people go to such lengths to have a go at some people's beliefs when it is at least as impossible to prove any deity doesn't exist as it is to prove it does. If Cameron means a society in which people generally live a life on the basis of Christian ethos (love thy neighbour, do unto others as you would be done unto you etc) I can live with that despite not being Christian myself.[/p][/quote]By "hijacked" do you mean they have the stronger arguments, or are you expecting the "debate" to be a one-sided affair where Mr Cameron is allowed to impose his religion on the majority of people in the country who do not share his beliefs? The values you describe are undoubtedly shared by mainstream Christians but they are shared by those of many other faiths and of none. Christianity embraced those values; it did not invent them and it certainly has no monopoly on them. Rather than a Christian ethos I'd view them as part of a shared Human ethos.[/p][/quote]No, I mean a debate about whether we are a Christian country is not the same as a debate about whether God exists. Wildwestener
  • Score: 0

7:40am Wed 23 Apr 14

Wildwestener says...

Swindon Humanists wrote:
Alex English wrote:
stfcdod wrote:
We are a Christian country. End of debate.
Of the religions people follow in this country, it is a majority Christian country. That much is true.

However, far more people have no faith, and do not follow any particular religion, than do so.
Absolutely. Even if you use the flawed census statistics, to claim we are a Christian country because the majority are Christian is just as wrong as saying we are a white country because the majority of people are white.
Well the most recent census says that 59% of the country is Christian. I presume you give people the right to declare their beliefs, if so, that's pretty conclusive. How is that flawed? This from a census that 100% of the adult population have to complete
Anyway, personally, I don't follow any religion but believe everyone has the right to practise whatever they want (within obvious legal boundaries). I just can't help feeling it's ironic how evangelical SOME humanists and atheists can be. It's a kind of fundamentalism all of their own and every bit as bad as the religious fundamentalism they despise.
[quote][p][bold]Swindon Humanists[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Alex English[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]stfcdod[/bold] wrote: We are a Christian country. End of debate.[/p][/quote]Of the religions people follow in this country, it is a majority Christian country. That much is true. However, far more people have no faith, and do not follow any particular religion, than do so.[/p][/quote]Absolutely. Even if you use the flawed census statistics, to claim we are a Christian country because the majority are Christian is just as wrong as saying we are a white country because the majority of people are white.[/p][/quote]Well the most recent census says that 59% of the country is Christian. I presume you give people the right to declare their beliefs, if so, that's pretty conclusive. How is that flawed? This from a census that 100% of the adult population have to complete Anyway, personally, I don't follow any religion but believe everyone has the right to practise whatever they want (within obvious legal boundaries). I just can't help feeling it's ironic how evangelical SOME humanists and atheists can be. It's a kind of fundamentalism all of their own and every bit as bad as the religious fundamentalism they despise. Wildwestener
  • Score: 2

9:13am Wed 23 Apr 14

Grimly Feendish says...

BREAKING NEWS:
There is no Sky Fairy or cloud jockeys or harp monkeys.
BREAKING NEWS: There is no Sky Fairy or cloud jockeys or harp monkeys. Grimly Feendish
  • Score: 0

9:33am Wed 23 Apr 14

Swindon Humanists says...

Wildwestener wrote:
Swindon Humanists wrote:
Alex English wrote:
stfcdod wrote:
We are a Christian country. End of debate.
Of the religions people follow in this country, it is a majority Christian country. That much is true.

However, far more people have no faith, and do not follow any particular religion, than do so.
Absolutely. Even if you use the flawed census statistics, to claim we are a Christian country because the majority are Christian is just as wrong as saying we are a white country because the majority of people are white.
Well the most recent census says that 59% of the country is Christian. I presume you give people the right to declare their beliefs, if so, that's pretty conclusive. How is that flawed? This from a census that 100% of the adult population have to complete
Anyway, personally, I don't follow any religion but believe everyone has the right to practise whatever they want (within obvious legal boundaries). I just can't help feeling it's ironic how evangelical SOME humanists and atheists can be. It's a kind of fundamentalism all of their own and every bit as bad as the religious fundamentalism they despise.
This is how the 2011 census is flawed:

https://humanism.org
.uk/campaigns/religi
on-and-belief-some-s
urveys-and-statistic
s/census-2011-result
s/

We would entirely agree with you that everyone has the right to practise whatever they want within legal boundaries. It's when those legal boundaries privilege one religious belief system over another, or over none, that the issue becomes one we will quite rightly speak out on. There's nothing evangelical or fundamental about that, quote the opposite in fact.
[quote][p][bold]Wildwestener[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Swindon Humanists[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Alex English[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]stfcdod[/bold] wrote: We are a Christian country. End of debate.[/p][/quote]Of the religions people follow in this country, it is a majority Christian country. That much is true. However, far more people have no faith, and do not follow any particular religion, than do so.[/p][/quote]Absolutely. Even if you use the flawed census statistics, to claim we are a Christian country because the majority are Christian is just as wrong as saying we are a white country because the majority of people are white.[/p][/quote]Well the most recent census says that 59% of the country is Christian. I presume you give people the right to declare their beliefs, if so, that's pretty conclusive. How is that flawed? This from a census that 100% of the adult population have to complete Anyway, personally, I don't follow any religion but believe everyone has the right to practise whatever they want (within obvious legal boundaries). I just can't help feeling it's ironic how evangelical SOME humanists and atheists can be. It's a kind of fundamentalism all of their own and every bit as bad as the religious fundamentalism they despise.[/p][/quote]This is how the 2011 census is flawed: https://humanism.org .uk/campaigns/religi on-and-belief-some-s urveys-and-statistic s/census-2011-result s/ We would entirely agree with you that everyone has the right to practise whatever they want within legal boundaries. It's when those legal boundaries privilege one religious belief system over another, or over none, that the issue becomes one we will quite rightly speak out on. There's nothing evangelical or fundamental about that, quote the opposite in fact. Swindon Humanists
  • Score: 4

10:16am Wed 23 Apr 14

Hmmmf says...

Well, speaking as an atheist, I'd rather live in a Christian country than a Muslim one, and I've lived and worked in both. Maybe 'use it or lose it' is the real message behind Cameron's remarks.
Well, speaking as an atheist, I'd rather live in a Christian country than a Muslim one, and I've lived and worked in both. Maybe 'use it or lose it' is the real message behind Cameron's remarks. Hmmmf
  • Score: 2

12:40pm Wed 23 Apr 14

ManWithCar says...

Davey Gravey wrote:
People who believe in gods are a bit mental. Sometimes alot mental
What an enlightened post. Actually, no, it's not. What a succinct way to show your lack of tolerance and repect for anyone else, whether they are Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Taoist or anything else. I wonder just how people like you function in real life?
[quote][p][bold]Davey Gravey[/bold] wrote: People who believe in gods are a bit mental. Sometimes alot mental[/p][/quote]What an enlightened post. Actually, no, it's not. What a succinct way to show your lack of tolerance and repect for anyone else, whether they are Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Taoist or anything else. I wonder just how people like you function in real life? ManWithCar
  • Score: -2

1:27pm Wed 23 Apr 14

Davey Gravey says...

ManWithCar wrote:
Davey Gravey wrote:
People who believe in gods are a bit mental. Sometimes alot mental
What an enlightened post. Actually, no, it's not. What a succinct way to show your lack of tolerance and repect for anyone else, whether they are Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Taoist or anything else. I wonder just how people like you function in real life?
By living in the real world. One life which I'm living.
[quote][p][bold]ManWithCar[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Davey Gravey[/bold] wrote: People who believe in gods are a bit mental. Sometimes alot mental[/p][/quote]What an enlightened post. Actually, no, it's not. What a succinct way to show your lack of tolerance and repect for anyone else, whether they are Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Taoist or anything else. I wonder just how people like you function in real life?[/p][/quote]By living in the real world. One life which I'm living. Davey Gravey
  • Score: 2

3:53pm Wed 23 Apr 14

ManWithCar says...

Davey Gravey wrote:
ManWithCar wrote:
Davey Gravey wrote: People who believe in gods are a bit mental. Sometimes alot mental
What an enlightened post. Actually, no, it's not. What a succinct way to show your lack of tolerance and repect for anyone else, whether they are Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Taoist or anything else. I wonder just how people like you function in real life?
By living in the real world. One life which I'm living.
So this real life, the one you are living in - but apparently nobody else does, because they happen to ascribe to a religion - how does that work? How do YOU get to judge other people and allude that no one else is in the real world, just because you choose to live your life the way you want?

Personally I couldn't care less about your sweeping statement and vague high-handedness, I am just curious to know what makes you supremely better than everyone else?
[quote][p][bold]Davey Gravey[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]ManWithCar[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Davey Gravey[/bold] wrote: People who believe in gods are a bit mental. Sometimes alot mental[/p][/quote]What an enlightened post. Actually, no, it's not. What a succinct way to show your lack of tolerance and repect for anyone else, whether they are Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Taoist or anything else. I wonder just how people like you function in real life?[/p][/quote]By living in the real world. One life which I'm living.[/p][/quote]So this real life, the one you are living in - but apparently nobody else does, because they happen to ascribe to a religion - how does that work? How do YOU get to judge other people and allude that no one else is in the real world, just because you choose to live your life the way you want? Personally I couldn't care less about your sweeping statement and vague high-handedness, I am just curious to know what makes you supremely better than everyone else? ManWithCar
  • Score: -2

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