Mount Crushmore looms up no more

This Is Wiltshire: Mount Crushmore  looms up no more Mount Crushmore looms up no more

THE infamous Mount Crushmore is no more, as work continues on the new St Stephen’s Place Leisure Park in Trowbridge.

Two months after work started on the project, the pile of rubble which has been there since the old Tesco store was demolished in the the 1990s has gone, being reused to level the site.

Construction company Leadbitter Group is carrying out the development, due to be finished in October 2013.

It will have a seven-screen Odeon cinema, an 80-bedroom Premier Inn hotel, family restaurants, cafes and bars and 111 parking spaces.

Tim Russell, senior asset manager at landowners Legal & General Property, said: “We are extremely pleased by the progress that has already been made on site by Leadbitter Group, with the piling phase of works advancing well and the steel frame now on order.

“We will make sure we keep the people of Trowbridge updated on this exciting project, especially with such a rapidly changing landscape as the work continues at a pace.”

About 65 per cent of the piling for the cinema is done and this phase of the project is expected to be finished in the next month. The hotel and restaurant piling is due to follow immediately.

Mr Russell said Legal & General had agreed terms with national restaurant operators to occupy some of the buildings and would announce the traders soon.

Wiltshire Council members Jeff Osborn and Graham Payne have released a statement claiming the authority’s Western Area Planning Committee missed a great opportunity when it passed plans for the St Stephen’s Place development as it did not place any section 106 obligations on developers.

Under section 106 agreements, Legal & General Property could have been asked to provide improvements to facilities close to their new development.

The councillors statement said: “Surprisingly in this case, there were no Section 106 legal obligations placed. “Such agreements are usual with large developments and require developers to provide improvements, or money to do so, to facilities close to the development. This process is known as planning gain.”

They suggested the committee could have, for example, asked the developer to pay for improvements to and manage the nearby multi-storey car park.

They said: “The granting of planning permission without such significant planning gain seems to us to be a most regrettable lost opportunity. Trowbridge and its inhabitants will be the losers.”

The Planning Inspectorate is inviting comments from the public on the appeal against Wiltshire Council’s decision to block a cinema development on the former Bowyers site in Trowbridge.

Plans to turn the derelict factory in Stallard Street into a cinema, restaurants and Morrisons supermarket were rejected by councillors earlier this year.

The refusal prompted an appeal from Optimisation Development Ltd but a date for the hearing is still to be set.

Comment letters, in triplicate, can be sent to Planning Inspect-orate, Room 3/19a, Temple Quay House, 2 The Square, Temple Quay, Bristol, quoting reference number W/11/02689/FUL by September 19.

For more information about the appeal process, see the website www.planning-inspectorate.gov.uk.

Comments (62)

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12:24pm Sun 2 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

Its funny because it seems Councillor Graham Payne wants to have his car park cake and eat it.

Remember this article...

http://www.wiltshire
times.co.uk/news/iny
ourtown/trowbridgene
ws/9155945.Fears_fre
e_spaces_will_disapp
ear_from_Trowbridge/


I'm not sure the council could get a 106 agreement to stick - Why should L&G pay for a car park they don't own? The council have tried to sell this car park to every owner of Castle place in the last 20 years. Who in their right mind would spend millions buying a site they cannot make money out of? Might aswell just burn money - and lets not forget that L&G are investing in other ways in the town - not just the St Stephen's Place Odeon Development.

The current situation with the car park is not good - it hasn't been cleaned in months - doors hanging off or broken allowing the recent rains to flow in torrents down the stair wells. If that's not a health and safety issue then I'm not sure what is. The council collect parking fines regardless and Mr Payne would like L&G Leisure to foot the bill for maintaining the car park - but remember Graham its "The People's Car Park" for the benefit of the people of Trowbridge. Each and every trader in the town benefits from the people of Trowbridge using that car park - why single out the biggest investor in the town in decades? Sour Grapes - that's why!

I notice that Prorsus are no longer the chosen developer for the Bowyers site - maybe we'll get some plans on the table that make sense soon then.
Its funny because it seems Councillor Graham Payne wants to have his car park cake and eat it. Remember this article... http://www.wiltshire times.co.uk/news/iny ourtown/trowbridgene ws/9155945.Fears_fre e_spaces_will_disapp ear_from_Trowbridge/ I'm not sure the council could get a 106 agreement to stick - Why should L&G pay for a car park they don't own? The council have tried to sell this car park to every owner of Castle place in the last 20 years. Who in their right mind would spend millions buying a site they cannot make money out of? Might aswell just burn money - and lets not forget that L&G are investing in other ways in the town - not just the St Stephen's Place Odeon Development. The current situation with the car park is not good - it hasn't been cleaned in months - doors hanging off or broken allowing the recent rains to flow in torrents down the stair wells. If that's not a health and safety issue then I'm not sure what is. The council collect parking fines regardless and Mr Payne would like L&G Leisure to foot the bill for maintaining the car park - but remember Graham its "The People's Car Park" for the benefit of the people of Trowbridge. Each and every trader in the town benefits from the people of Trowbridge using that car park - why single out the biggest investor in the town in decades? Sour Grapes - that's why! I notice that Prorsus are no longer the chosen developer for the Bowyers site - maybe we'll get some plans on the table that make sense soon then. PCS_Wilts

9:50am Mon 3 Sep 12

upnunder says...

Maybe the developer will realise we people off Trowbridge dont want ANOTHER supermarket and ANOTHER cinema .We all want something to compliment SSP not something thats duplicating it .
Maybe the developer will realise we people off Trowbridge dont want ANOTHER supermarket and ANOTHER cinema .We all want something to compliment SSP not something thats duplicating it . upnunder

9:54am Mon 3 Sep 12

GP & JK GOT IT WRONG says...

So Graham Payne got it wrong again .What a shocker !!!!!!!
So Graham Payne got it wrong again .What a shocker !!!!!!! GP & JK GOT IT WRONG

11:12am Mon 3 Sep 12

upnunder says...

I wonder when L&G announce the restaurant names shortly we see the chains that have shown an interest in the Innox doomed site .
I wonder when L&G announce the restaurant names shortly we see the chains that have shown an interest in the Innox doomed site . upnunder

11:33am Mon 3 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

I hope that Trowbridge doesn't end up with Just another supermarket and a petrol station on the Bowyers site...
I hope that Trowbridge doesn't end up with Just another supermarket and a petrol station on the Bowyers site... PCS_Wilts

1:10pm Mon 3 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

For those of you that are interested - photos of the St Stephens Place site as it is today - you'll see progress if far better than the 2 year old photo the WT could manage to scrape out of their archive.

http://i1156.photobu
cket.com/albums/p569
/pcs_wilts/IMAG1476.
jpg
For those of you that are interested - photos of the St Stephens Place site as it is today - you'll see progress if far better than the 2 year old photo the WT could manage to scrape out of their archive. http://i1156.photobu cket.com/albums/p569 /pcs_wilts/IMAG1476. jpg PCS_Wilts

1:29pm Mon 3 Sep 12

Beardy Mike says...

Looking forward to a night out in Trowbridge again...

Beer @ the Kings Arms

Meal @ One of the new restaurants

Movie @ The Odeon

Solid.
Looking forward to a night out in Trowbridge again... Beer @ the Kings Arms Meal @ One of the new restaurants Movie @ The Odeon Solid. Beardy Mike

2:46pm Mon 3 Sep 12

Beardy Mike says...

the SSP site wasn't demolished till around 2005.

It became "disused" during the 1990's
the SSP site wasn't demolished till around 2005. It became "disused" during the 1990's Beardy Mike

12:32am Tue 4 Sep 12

yeold6x says...

PCS How are L&G investing elsewhere in the town? Been out of the country for a bit so can you mail link to previous comments or info on investment. Thanks
PCS How are L&G investing elsewhere in the town? Been out of the country for a bit so can you mail link to previous comments or info on investment. Thanks yeold6x

2:08am Tue 4 Sep 12

AMVanquish007 says...

PCS-I suggest you go down to the library and do some intense swatting of the archived Wiltshire Times to improve the little grey cells. To talk about a councillor who has done nothing but good for our town for over 30 years and supported the town park and our covenanted multi storey just shows how lacking in knowledge you are.
Councillor Graham Payne has always defended the 99 year free of charge covenant on the car park, In fact when he was Leader of the District Council in 2008 he was instrumental in persuading his colleagues to sanction the deep cleanse and repaint of the internal decks. He has always fought against those Councillors who wanted to sell the car park.
In recent times, the Police have declared it a crime hot spot and
have stepped up their patrols.
Until Wiltshire Council took over, there was a security presence every
night on the car park.
So long as it is free of charge, all the people will benefit, but if
ever the Council caves in and agrees that Legal and General could charge then perhaps there will be space for those
patrons who can't find a vacant car space outside the cinema on weekdays or on a holiday date.But then again maybe thats the next cunning plan
from PCS and his masters?
If that happens the town traders who rely on this car park built for them and shoppers ( and not for a leisure complex 50ft away) may well find the the impact of this on their trade a bitter pill for them to swallow.
And finally-Angus Horner is still on board and the plans are not being changed at all at Innox Riverside. They have been submitted with Supermarket/Cinema and restaurants intact for the planning inspector to assess.
PCS-I suggest you go down to the library and do some intense swatting of the archived Wiltshire Times to improve the little grey cells. To talk about a councillor who has done nothing but good for our town for over 30 years and supported the town park and our covenanted multi storey just shows how lacking in knowledge you are. Councillor Graham Payne has always defended the 99 year free of charge covenant on the car park, In fact when he was Leader of the District Council in 2008 he was instrumental in persuading his colleagues to sanction the deep cleanse and repaint of the internal decks. He has always fought against those Councillors who wanted to sell the car park. In recent times, the Police have declared it a crime hot spot and have stepped up their patrols. Until Wiltshire Council took over, there was a security presence every night on the car park. So long as it is free of charge, all the people will benefit, but if ever the Council caves in and agrees that Legal and General could charge then perhaps there will be space for those patrons who can't find a vacant car space outside the cinema on weekdays or on a holiday date.But then again maybe thats the next cunning plan from PCS and his masters? If that happens the town traders who rely on this car park built for them and shoppers ( and not for a leisure complex 50ft away) may well find the the impact of this on their trade a bitter pill for them to swallow. And finally-Angus Horner is still on board and the plans are not being changed at all at Innox Riverside. They have been submitted with Supermarket/Cinema and restaurants intact for the planning inspector to assess. AMVanquish007

4:00am Tue 4 Sep 12

Tugger says...

Personally I think another supermarket and a reasonably priced fuel station is a good idea. I mean, is there a good reason we pay 5PPl more than warminster? Oh yeah, thats the tesco monolopy we have always had.
Personally I think another supermarket and a reasonably priced fuel station is a good idea. I mean, is there a good reason we pay 5PPl more than warminster? Oh yeah, thats the tesco monolopy we have always had. Tugger

12:37am Wed 5 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

Mike, you avoid and elude the original point I made, and try to mask it with other facts that I do not for a second deny are true or have made reference to.

However, I will not remark on your other comments, as that would be to educate you - and if you don't know what that means now - you will in the coming months my friend...
Mike, you avoid and elude the original point I made, and try to mask it with other facts that I do not for a second deny are true or have made reference to. However, I will not remark on your other comments, as that would be to educate you - and if you don't know what that means now - you will in the coming months my friend... PCS_Wilts

12:44am Wed 5 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

yeold6x wrote:
PCS How are L&G investing elsewhere in the town? Been out of the country for a bit so can you mail link to previous comments or info on investment. Thanks
They have invested in the local arts society and towards the publications of the Trowbridge Tourist board promoting each and interest in the area.
[quote][p][bold]yeold6x[/bold] wrote: PCS How are L&G investing elsewhere in the town? Been out of the country for a bit so can you mail link to previous comments or info on investment. Thanks[/p][/quote]They have invested in the local arts society and towards the publications of the Trowbridge Tourist board promoting each and interest in the area. PCS_Wilts

1:29am Wed 5 Sep 12

BathBadger says...

It looks like Cllrs Payne & Osborn have unearthed a glaring omission of a Section 106 obligation not being in place. Who let that slip through and how?

It's worth noting the suggestion of managing the car park was simply a suggestion, along with improvements to local facilities.

Section 106 agreements (in addition to mitigating the impacts of a development) also provide some benefit to the local community, and could include affordable housing; community meeting; sports and leisure facilities; highways and street works etc. And demonstrated just last month where Section 106 funds were used to build a car park and changing facilities for the community at Innox Road. You give a little to gain some planning consent - win/win.

This actually ties in with the planning policies and core strategy of Wilts Council, so bit of an own goal there really.

They didn't forget a 106 for the Bowyers site though - "Permission is subject to a section 106 agreement with Wiltshire Council, which includes £15,000 towards public art, money towards affordable housing, cash towards secondary school places and £9,000 towards play facilities."

So why one rule for St Stephens Place and another for Bowyers?

I'll be interested to see what response the Planning Committee come back with.
It looks like Cllrs Payne & Osborn have unearthed a glaring omission of a Section 106 obligation not being in place. Who let that slip through and how? It's worth noting the suggestion of managing the car park was simply a suggestion, along with improvements to local facilities. Section 106 agreements (in addition to mitigating the impacts of a development) also provide some benefit to the local community, and could include affordable housing; community meeting; sports and leisure facilities; highways and street works etc. And demonstrated just last month where Section 106 funds were used to build a car park and changing facilities for the community at Innox Road. You give a little to gain some planning consent - win/win. This actually ties in with the planning policies and core strategy of Wilts Council, so bit of an own goal there really. They didn't forget a 106 for the Bowyers site though - "Permission is subject to a section 106 agreement with Wiltshire Council, which includes £15,000 towards public art, money towards affordable housing, cash towards secondary school places and £9,000 towards play facilities." So why one rule for St Stephens Place and another for Bowyers? I'll be interested to see what response the Planning Committee come back with. BathBadger

9:10pm Wed 5 Sep 12

upnunder says...

106 agreement for this 106 agreement for that no one really gives a ???? . We all know in just over 12 months we will be watching movies at the odeon cinema on the old tesco site .
106 agreement for this 106 agreement for that no one really gives a ???? . We all know in just over 12 months we will be watching movies at the odeon cinema on the old tesco site . upnunder

11:31pm Wed 5 Sep 12

jigsaw 5 says...

I agree with underup....in 12 months the cinema will be up and running and i'll be in Bristol watching films cheaper and better night out!
I agree with underup....in 12 months the cinema will be up and running and i'll be in Bristol watching films cheaper and better night out! jigsaw 5

11:46pm Wed 5 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

jigsaw 5 wrote:
I agree with underup....in 12 months the cinema will be up and running and i'll be in Bristol watching films cheaper and better night out!
Each to their own but personally I'll take the savings on petrol and wear and tear on my vehicle into account (not to mention the 2ish hour round trip in travel time) as well as the row of restaurants to choose from and enjoy some good food and because I'm not driving I can also enjoy a few glasses of wine and a beer or two at the Kings Arms (best bar in town -might get accused of taking a bung for that plug ;) ).

Not to mention the possibility of a game of ten pin bowling over at the old Bowyers site ;) :p
[quote][p][bold]jigsaw 5[/bold] wrote: I agree with underup....in 12 months the cinema will be up and running and i'll be in Bristol watching films cheaper and better night out![/p][/quote]Each to their own but personally I'll take the savings on petrol and wear and tear on my vehicle into account (not to mention the 2ish hour round trip in travel time) as well as the row of restaurants to choose from and enjoy some good food and because I'm not driving I can also enjoy a few glasses of wine and a beer or two at the Kings Arms (best bar in town -might get accused of taking a bung for that plug ;) ). Not to mention the possibility of a game of ten pin bowling over at the old Bowyers site ;) :p PCS_Wilts

11:54pm Wed 5 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

Tugger wrote:
Personally I think another supermarket and a reasonably priced fuel station is a good idea. I mean, is there a good reason we pay 5PPl more than warminster? Oh yeah, thats the tesco monolopy we have always had.
I agree a Morrison's petrol station would be good but remember that there are 2 other petrol stations within half a mile of Tesco's (hardly a monopoly) no one is forced to buy petrol at Tesco's...
[quote][p][bold]Tugger[/bold] wrote: Personally I think another supermarket and a reasonably priced fuel station is a good idea. I mean, is there a good reason we pay 5PPl more than warminster? Oh yeah, thats the tesco monolopy we have always had.[/p][/quote]I agree a Morrison's petrol station would be good but remember that there are 2 other petrol stations within half a mile of Tesco's (hardly a monopoly) no one is forced to buy petrol at Tesco's... PCS_Wilts

12:08am Thu 6 Sep 12

BathBadger says...

PCS_Wilts wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Personally I think another supermarket and a reasonably priced fuel station is a good idea. I mean, is there a good reason we pay 5PPl more than warminster? Oh yeah, thats the tesco monolopy we have always had.
I agree a Morrison's petrol station would be good but remember that there are 2 other petrol stations within half a mile of Tesco's (hardly a monopoly) no one is forced to buy petrol at Tesco's...
I think the point Tugger is trying to make is that there is no other "discount" petrol provider in Trowbridge, hence why we pay 5PPL more here. Morrison's would provide competition and drive the cost down, but they wont put a petrol station in without the supermarket. You can see why people have the perception of a Tesco Monopoly, when Sainsburys weren't granted permission for a petrol station.
[quote][p][bold]PCS_Wilts[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]Tugger[/bold] wrote: Personally I think another supermarket and a reasonably priced fuel station is a good idea. I mean, is there a good reason we pay 5PPl more than warminster? Oh yeah, thats the tesco monolopy we have always had.[/p][/quote]I agree a Morrison's petrol station would be good but remember that there are 2 other petrol stations within half a mile of Tesco's (hardly a monopoly) no one is forced to buy petrol at Tesco's...[/p][/quote]I think the point Tugger is trying to make is that there is no other "discount" petrol provider in Trowbridge, hence why we pay 5PPL more here. Morrison's would provide competition and drive the cost down, but they wont put a petrol station in without the supermarket. You can see why people have the perception of a Tesco Monopoly, when Sainsburys weren't granted permission for a petrol station. BathBadger

10:13am Thu 6 Sep 12

snazzle says...

I cant wait for the cinema to arrive in 2013 followed by another empty premises in 2015..... All given the go ahead too easily to promote the civic hall development.
I cant wait for the cinema to arrive in 2013 followed by another empty premises in 2015..... All given the go ahead too easily to promote the civic hall development. snazzle

10:29am Thu 6 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

snazzle wrote:
I cant wait for the cinema to arrive in 2013 followed by another empty premises in 2015..... All given the go ahead too easily to promote the civic hall development.
Not so sure why you think Odeon would be closed by 2015 - now the ludicrous idea of building a second cinema in the town is all but off the table I'm sure the Odeon will thrive.

I visited Vue @ Cribbs last week - the ticket prices were about a pound cheaper than Odeon in Bath but I would say the refreshments are way more expensive - over £18 for 3 drinks and 2 bags of sweets and candy floss.

The reason the planning application was processed easily was because the application was full & complete. L&G had spent 15 months working WITH the council to get their application right prior to being submitted. Prorsus however, were attempting to steal the cinema idea and so did not have the luxury of 15 months prior consultation with council - albeit Prorsus submitted plans first they were no where near as they would need to be in order to be accepted - and that is exactly how it turned out.

Plenty of people sat on the sour grapes fence at the moment - but this is what happens when people lie to you and build your hopes up without giving you all the facts - sorry guys but if you're angry there's no point looking any further than the leaders of your own camp.



I
[quote][p][bold]snazzle[/bold] wrote: I cant wait for the cinema to arrive in 2013 followed by another empty premises in 2015..... All given the go ahead too easily to promote the civic hall development.[/p][/quote]Not so sure why you think Odeon would be closed by 2015 - now the ludicrous idea of building a second cinema in the town is all but off the table I'm sure the Odeon will thrive. I visited Vue @ Cribbs last week - the ticket prices were about a pound cheaper than Odeon in Bath but I would say the refreshments are way more expensive - over £18 for 3 drinks and 2 bags of sweets and candy floss. The reason the planning application was processed easily was because the application was full & complete. L&G had spent 15 months working WITH the council to get their application right prior to being submitted. Prorsus however, were attempting to steal the cinema idea and so did not have the luxury of 15 months prior consultation with council - albeit Prorsus submitted plans first they were no where near as they would need to be in order to be accepted - and that is exactly how it turned out. Plenty of people sat on the sour grapes fence at the moment - but this is what happens when people lie to you and build your hopes up without giving you all the facts - sorry guys but if you're angry there's no point looking any further than the leaders of your own camp. I PCS_Wilts

11:27am Thu 6 Sep 12

BathBadger says...

I wonder how the Section 106 got missed with all the "close working" that went on then? It wasn't missed for Innox though and those seemed to be the sticking points.

And as for duplication, using that model, surely we only need One supermarket, one petrol station, one electrical outlet, one shoe shop etc etc for the whole town! Old ground I know, but there is the catchment and the demand. St Stephens will be good for Trowbridge, Innox will be great for West Wilts.

The perception of "camps" is one created by those who are Anti Innox. I think you'll find there are a number of people who would like both developments, with 2 cinemas, thus offering more choice, competition and keeping costs keen!
I wonder how the Section 106 got missed with all the "close working" that went on then? It wasn't missed for Innox though and those seemed to be the sticking points. And as for duplication, using that model, surely we only need One supermarket, one petrol station, one electrical outlet, one shoe shop etc etc for the whole town! Old ground I know, but there is the catchment and the demand. St Stephens will be good for Trowbridge, Innox will be great for West Wilts. The perception of "camps" is one created by those who are Anti Innox. I think you'll find there are a number of people who would like both developments, with 2 cinemas, thus offering more choice, competition and keeping costs keen! BathBadger

11:44am Thu 6 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

BathBadger wrote:
I wonder how the Section 106 got missed with all the "close working" that went on then? It wasn't missed for Innox though and those seemed to be the sticking points.

And as for duplication, using that model, surely we only need One supermarket, one petrol station, one electrical outlet, one shoe shop etc etc for the whole town! Old ground I know, but there is the catchment and the demand. St Stephens will be good for Trowbridge, Innox will be great for West Wilts.

The perception of "camps" is one created by those who are Anti Innox. I think you'll find there are a number of people who would like both developments, with 2 cinemas, thus offering more choice, competition and keeping costs keen!
Ideally you are correct but in this situation Suitability is the key, and that is also part of the core strategy.

I don't think the 106 was missed - that's just how its being portrayed by Councillor Payne - his latest straw to grasp at - its only take 6 months for that one to click - no wonder they couldn't get plans right.
[quote][p][bold]BathBadger[/bold] wrote: I wonder how the Section 106 got missed with all the "close working" that went on then? It wasn't missed for Innox though and those seemed to be the sticking points. And as for duplication, using that model, surely we only need One supermarket, one petrol station, one electrical outlet, one shoe shop etc etc for the whole town! Old ground I know, but there is the catchment and the demand. St Stephens will be good for Trowbridge, Innox will be great for West Wilts. The perception of "camps" is one created by those who are Anti Innox. I think you'll find there are a number of people who would like both developments, with 2 cinemas, thus offering more choice, competition and keeping costs keen![/p][/quote]Ideally you are correct but in this situation Suitability is the key, and that is also part of the core strategy. I don't think the 106 was missed - that's just how its being portrayed by Councillor Payne - his latest straw to grasp at - its only take 6 months for that one to click - no wonder they couldn't get plans right. PCS_Wilts

11:46am Thu 6 Sep 12

upnunder says...

Bathbadger you sound just like AMVanquish007.Funny that !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bathbadger you sound just like AMVanquish007.Funny that !!!!!!!!!!!!! upnunder

11:48am Thu 6 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

PCS_Wilts wrote:
BathBadger wrote:
I wonder how the Section 106 got missed with all the "close working" that went on then? It wasn't missed for Innox though and those seemed to be the sticking points.

And as for duplication, using that model, surely we only need One supermarket, one petrol station, one electrical outlet, one shoe shop etc etc for the whole town! Old ground I know, but there is the catchment and the demand. St Stephens will be good for Trowbridge, Innox will be great for West Wilts.

The perception of "camps" is one created by those who are Anti Innox. I think you'll find there are a number of people who would like both developments, with 2 cinemas, thus offering more choice, competition and keeping costs keen!
Ideally you are correct but in this situation Suitability is the key, and that is also part of the core strategy.

I don't think the 106 was missed - that's just how its being portrayed by Councillor Payne - his latest straw to grasp at - its only take 6 months for that one to click - no wonder they couldn't get plans right.
*Sustainabilty not suitability
[quote][p][bold]PCS_Wilts[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]BathBadger[/bold] wrote: I wonder how the Section 106 got missed with all the "close working" that went on then? It wasn't missed for Innox though and those seemed to be the sticking points. And as for duplication, using that model, surely we only need One supermarket, one petrol station, one electrical outlet, one shoe shop etc etc for the whole town! Old ground I know, but there is the catchment and the demand. St Stephens will be good for Trowbridge, Innox will be great for West Wilts. The perception of "camps" is one created by those who are Anti Innox. I think you'll find there are a number of people who would like both developments, with 2 cinemas, thus offering more choice, competition and keeping costs keen![/p][/quote]Ideally you are correct but in this situation Suitability is the key, and that is also part of the core strategy. I don't think the 106 was missed - that's just how its being portrayed by Councillor Payne - his latest straw to grasp at - its only take 6 months for that one to click - no wonder they couldn't get plans right.[/p][/quote]*Sustainabilty not suitability PCS_Wilts

12:04pm Thu 6 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

so... when was the last time anyone spoke to Angus Horner?
so... when was the last time anyone spoke to Angus Horner? PCS_Wilts

12:33pm Thu 6 Sep 12

jigsaw 5 says...

If your expecting a cinema and tiny cafe/bars to change the atmosphere in Trowbridge your mistaken badly. One kings arm ain't and doesn't make Trowvegas ( which is a Pass take of this town) to change, then your wrong. Bath is far superior and £3 on train away. Theres multitude of bars/pubs and decent cafes/restaurants, mind you Trowvegas got 11 cafes already so chuck more in lol. Trowvegas needs a nightclub, proper pubs and decent restaurants big chain (pizza hut,TFI) to bring people from the outside in, it won't happen. so 2hours in a cinema doesn't make a night out and won't bring everyone to Trowvegas...and who on earth buys cinema confectionary lol.
If your expecting a cinema and tiny cafe/bars to change the atmosphere in Trowbridge your mistaken badly. One kings arm ain't and doesn't make Trowvegas ( which is a Pass take of this town) to change, then your wrong. Bath is far superior and £3 on train away. Theres multitude of bars/pubs and decent cafes/restaurants, mind you Trowvegas got 11 cafes already so chuck more in lol. Trowvegas needs a nightclub, proper pubs and decent restaurants big chain (pizza hut,TFI) to bring people from the outside in, it won't happen. so 2hours in a cinema doesn't make a night out and won't bring everyone to Trowvegas...and who on earth buys cinema confectionary lol. jigsaw 5

1:25pm Thu 6 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

jigsaw 5 wrote:
If your expecting a cinema and tiny cafe/bars to change the atmosphere in Trowbridge your mistaken badly. One kings arm ain't and doesn't make Trowvegas ( which is a Pass take of this town) to change, then your wrong. Bath is far superior and £3 on train away. Theres multitude of bars/pubs and decent cafes/restaurants, mind you Trowvegas got 11 cafes already so chuck more in lol. Trowvegas needs a nightclub, proper pubs and decent restaurants big chain (pizza hut,TFI) to bring people from the outside in, it won't happen. so 2hours in a cinema doesn't make a night out and won't bring everyone to Trowvegas...and who on earth buys cinema confectionary lol.
I used the train to go to bath a few weeks ago and a return is almost £6 per person so approx £23 for a group of 4. You also have to rush to make sure you get the last train back at 11.22pm - awesome. If not you're looking at between £25 and £35 for a taxi back.

Lets just say that the development at St Stephen's will be the first of many developments in the next five years hopefully. One decent investment will attract more. Bath is City not a town and so will obviously provide more facilities but we have to start some where do we not.
[quote][p][bold]jigsaw 5[/bold] wrote: If your expecting a cinema and tiny cafe/bars to change the atmosphere in Trowbridge your mistaken badly. One kings arm ain't and doesn't make Trowvegas ( which is a Pass take of this town) to change, then your wrong. Bath is far superior and £3 on train away. Theres multitude of bars/pubs and decent cafes/restaurants, mind you Trowvegas got 11 cafes already so chuck more in lol. Trowvegas needs a nightclub, proper pubs and decent restaurants big chain (pizza hut,TFI) to bring people from the outside in, it won't happen. so 2hours in a cinema doesn't make a night out and won't bring everyone to Trowvegas...and who on earth buys cinema confectionary lol.[/p][/quote]I used the train to go to bath a few weeks ago and a return is almost £6 per person so approx £23 for a group of 4. You also have to rush to make sure you get the last train back at 11.22pm - awesome. If not you're looking at between £25 and £35 for a taxi back. Lets just say that the development at St Stephen's will be the first of many developments in the next five years hopefully. One decent investment will attract more. Bath is City not a town and so will obviously provide more facilities but we have to start some where do we not. PCS_Wilts

2:21pm Thu 6 Sep 12

upnunder says...

Jigsaw5 , can you confirm how small these cafe/restaurants are going to be and that they are not going to be national chains that i believe that they probably are .Do you know something everyone else doesnt ?????
Jigsaw5 , can you confirm how small these cafe/restaurants are going to be and that they are not going to be national chains that i believe that they probably are .Do you know something everyone else doesnt ????? upnunder

3:13pm Thu 6 Sep 12

AMVanquish007 says...

To clear a few points up PCS - you obviously think your timeline of who what and where with regards to a cinema in Trowbridge is yours to disgracefully pedal to us as being the right one.
I have more knowledge than you do on this one and certainly know that Cineworld was first before Odeon were even thought of. Odeon did not sign contractually until this year? And when I asked Legal and General in the presence of councillors at the Trowbridge Area Board meeting in September they said no operator had been signed. Cineworld signed contractually before August last year on Innox Riverside.
I have been in contact with Cineworld and they are 100% committed to Trowbridge so I suggest you stop taunting and making ridiculous suggestions that Innox Riverside should have other things on it other than what the public inquiry and planning inspector will assess.
But after what David Cameron indicated on building and planning laws to be eased and developments and the creation of jobs, the way it's looking Innox Riverside will be cleared to go and people of Trowbridge will at last get what they want.
THE RIGHT CINEMA IN THE RIGHT PLACE AND WITH A PRICING POLICY BEST SUITED TO THIS AREA.
Something you continue to ignore believing in your own ignorance that the people of West Wiltshire are going to get something better with Odeon.
PCS!!!!! They are a premium price cinema operator suitable for upmarket cities and towns. All you have to do is look at their portfolio.
The only reason they are here is to protect their cinema in Bath from a Cineworld cinema that is waiting in the wings.
The catchment for 2 cinemas is possible but as I said to you before sustainability and viability will be dependent on the car parking AT ALL TIMES.And in the respect one cinema does not make the grade on that score. I just cannot believe you are so blinkered and so blind.
No doubt you will reply to this post in such words as 'we've heard it before' or 'yawn' or like you always do - never answer proven factual statements believing in your own rhetoric.
And to reiterate yet again - I'm not Bath Badger but I have to say he is doing an admirable job with his detailed and interesting posts.
But I suggest what you do is look at the SSP planning portal on the Wiltshire Planning website- to add 3 additional documents to a closed planning application obviously deserved a thorough investigation.
To clear a few points up PCS - you obviously think your timeline of who what and where with regards to a cinema in Trowbridge is yours to disgracefully pedal to us as being the right one. I have more knowledge than you do on this one and certainly know that Cineworld was first before Odeon were even thought of. Odeon did not sign contractually until this year? And when I asked Legal and General in the presence of councillors at the Trowbridge Area Board meeting in September they said no operator had been signed. Cineworld signed contractually before August last year on Innox Riverside. I have been in contact with Cineworld and they are 100% committed to Trowbridge so I suggest you stop taunting and making ridiculous suggestions that Innox Riverside should have other things on it other than what the public inquiry and planning inspector will assess. But after what David Cameron indicated on building and planning laws to be eased and developments and the creation of jobs, the way it's looking Innox Riverside will be cleared to go and people of Trowbridge will at last get what they want. THE RIGHT CINEMA IN THE RIGHT PLACE AND WITH A PRICING POLICY BEST SUITED TO THIS AREA. Something you continue to ignore believing in your own ignorance that the people of West Wiltshire are going to get something better with Odeon. PCS!!!!! They are a premium price cinema operator suitable for upmarket cities and towns. All you have to do is look at their portfolio. The only reason they are here is to protect their cinema in Bath from a Cineworld cinema that is waiting in the wings. The catchment for 2 cinemas is possible but as I said to you before sustainability and viability will be dependent on the car parking AT ALL TIMES.And in the respect one cinema does not make the grade on that score. I just cannot believe you are so blinkered and so blind. No doubt you will reply to this post in such words as 'we've heard it before' or 'yawn' or like you always do - never answer proven factual statements believing in your own rhetoric. And to reiterate yet again - I'm not Bath Badger but I have to say he is doing an admirable job with his detailed and interesting posts. But I suggest what you do is look at the SSP planning portal on the Wiltshire Planning website- to add 3 additional documents to a closed planning application obviously deserved a thorough investigation. AMVanquish007

3:24pm Thu 6 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

...when was the last time you spoke to Angus?
...when was the last time you spoke to Angus? PCS_Wilts

3:26pm Thu 6 Sep 12

AMVanquish007 says...

Typo -one has to assume the only reason they are here In Trowbridge is to protect their cinema in Bath from a Cineworld cinema waiting in the wings.
Typo -one has to assume the only reason they are here In Trowbridge is to protect their cinema in Bath from a Cineworld cinema waiting in the wings. AMVanquish007

3:33pm Thu 6 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

you know what happens when you assume Mike.

...when was the last time you spoke to Angus?


Why have Prorsus been dropped in favour of Optimisation Development Ltd communicating with the council?
you know what happens when you assume Mike. ...when was the last time you spoke to Angus? Why have Prorsus been dropped in favour of Optimisation Development Ltd communicating with the council? PCS_Wilts

3:36pm Thu 6 Sep 12

upnunder says...

The reason i ask is if you look at other L&G leisure parks around the country you will find many Frankie & bennies ,Pizza Hut, Pizza Express ,Nandos,Bella Pasta ,Bella Italia,Chiquitos, Prezzo , Harvester ,Mcdonalds,the list goes on and on.Who in your opinion Jigsaw5 will be on ssp site.
The reason i ask is if you look at other L&G leisure parks around the country you will find many Frankie & bennies ,Pizza Hut, Pizza Express ,Nandos,Bella Pasta ,Bella Italia,Chiquitos, Prezzo , Harvester ,Mcdonalds,the list goes on and on.Who in your opinion Jigsaw5 will be on ssp site. upnunder

3:52pm Thu 6 Sep 12

AMVanquish007 says...

It would not be difficult for you to make contact with Angus Horner. I am sure he will enlighten you and explain quite a few things to you rather than you posting misjudged or speculative comments.
It would not be difficult for you to make contact with Angus Horner. I am sure he will enlighten you and explain quite a few things to you rather than you posting misjudged or speculative comments. AMVanquish007

4:00pm Thu 6 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

Who says I'm speculating?
Who says I'm speculating? PCS_Wilts

4:02pm Thu 6 Sep 12

AMVanquish007 says...

Quite a few times my assumptions more often than not mirror the facts and the glaringly obvious. It's called film industry experience-something I have and you don't.
Quite a few times my assumptions more often than not mirror the facts and the glaringly obvious. It's called film industry experience-something I have and you don't. AMVanquish007

4:03pm Thu 6 Sep 12

upnunder says...

Then as if by magic AMVanquish/Mike baxter re appears .Welcome back Mike ,well sort of.
Then as if by magic AMVanquish/Mike baxter re appears .Welcome back Mike ,well sort of. upnunder

4:06pm Thu 6 Sep 12

AMVanquish007 says...

You are speculating Prorsus and Angus Horner has been dropped.
Take it from me- he hasn't
You are speculating Prorsus and Angus Horner has been dropped. Take it from me- he hasn't AMVanquish007

4:08pm Thu 6 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

...just like the planning permission St Stephen's Place has but Innox Riverside does not huh Mike.
...just like the planning permission St Stephen's Place has but Innox Riverside does not huh Mike. PCS_Wilts

4:22pm Thu 6 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

We all know that Optimisation Development LTD is the company owned by Morrisons to buy the Bowyers site - I just wondered if you knew why they were now fronting themselves after all this time?
We all know that Optimisation Development LTD is the company owned by Morrisons to buy the Bowyers site - I just wondered if you knew why they were now fronting themselves after all this time? PCS_Wilts

7:11pm Thu 6 Sep 12

BathBadger says...

PCS_Wilts wrote:
BathBadger wrote:
I wonder how the Section 106 got missed with all the "close working" that went on then? It wasn't missed for Innox though and those seemed to be the sticking points.

And as for duplication, using that model, surely we only need One supermarket, one petrol station, one electrical outlet, one shoe shop etc etc for the whole town! Old ground I know, but there is the catchment and the demand. St Stephens will be good for Trowbridge, Innox will be great for West Wilts.

The perception of "camps" is one created by those who are Anti Innox. I think you'll find there are a number of people who would like both developments, with 2 cinemas, thus offering more choice, competition and keeping costs keen!
Ideally you are correct but in this situation Suitability is the key, and that is also part of the core strategy.

I don't think the 106 was missed - that's just how its being portrayed by Councillor Payne - his latest straw to grasp at - its only take 6 months for that one to click - no wonder they couldn't get plans right.
So if the 106 wasn't missed, was it waived? Why should it apply to Innox and not St Stephens?

Mike has now also alerted the 3 extra documents added to a closed application. What next?
[quote][p][bold]PCS_Wilts[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]BathBadger[/bold] wrote: I wonder how the Section 106 got missed with all the "close working" that went on then? It wasn't missed for Innox though and those seemed to be the sticking points. And as for duplication, using that model, surely we only need One supermarket, one petrol station, one electrical outlet, one shoe shop etc etc for the whole town! Old ground I know, but there is the catchment and the demand. St Stephens will be good for Trowbridge, Innox will be great for West Wilts. The perception of "camps" is one created by those who are Anti Innox. I think you'll find there are a number of people who would like both developments, with 2 cinemas, thus offering more choice, competition and keeping costs keen![/p][/quote]Ideally you are correct but in this situation Suitability is the key, and that is also part of the core strategy. I don't think the 106 was missed - that's just how its being portrayed by Councillor Payne - his latest straw to grasp at - its only take 6 months for that one to click - no wonder they couldn't get plans right.[/p][/quote]So if the 106 wasn't missed, was it waived? Why should it apply to Innox and not St Stephens? Mike has now also alerted the 3 extra documents added to a closed application. What next? BathBadger

10:13pm Thu 6 Sep 12

upnunder says...

What is the significance of the 3 extra documents .?
What is the significance of the 3 extra documents .? upnunder

4:23am Fri 7 Sep 12

jigsaw 5 says...

Blimey some people must have sewn up pockets. £3.40 to get to Bath returnwith group ticket. Go out 4pm like we all do, yes, 12 people from Trowvegas leaving their Town. I do like walking through our COUNTY TOWN OF WILTSHIRE and wander past a derelict Peter blacks, trolleys in the river, Polish sleeping and urinating in the multi-storey and along the very dodgy river walk. ...but at night...No thanks. Odeon gonna need shuttle buses from train station with blacked out windows...lol.
Blimey some people must have sewn up pockets. £3.40 to get to Bath returnwith group ticket. Go out 4pm like we all do, yes, 12 people from Trowvegas leaving their Town. I do like walking through our COUNTY TOWN OF WILTSHIRE and wander past a derelict Peter blacks, trolleys in the river, Polish sleeping and urinating in the multi-storey and along the very dodgy river walk. ...but at night...No thanks. Odeon gonna need shuttle buses from train station with blacked out windows...lol. jigsaw 5

9:15am Fri 7 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

jigsaw 5 wrote:
Blimey some people must have sewn up pockets. £3.40 to get to Bath returnwith group ticket. Go out 4pm like we all do, yes, 12 people from Trowvegas leaving their Town. I do like walking through our COUNTY TOWN OF WILTSHIRE and wander past a derelict Peter blacks, trolleys in the river, Polish sleeping and urinating in the multi-storey and along the very dodgy river walk. ...but at night...No thanks. Odeon gonna need shuttle buses from train station with blacked out windows...lol.
yeah because Cineworld overlooking a scrap yard is a much better view huh...
[quote][p][bold]jigsaw 5[/bold] wrote: Blimey some people must have sewn up pockets. £3.40 to get to Bath returnwith group ticket. Go out 4pm like we all do, yes, 12 people from Trowvegas leaving their Town. I do like walking through our COUNTY TOWN OF WILTSHIRE and wander past a derelict Peter blacks, trolleys in the river, Polish sleeping and urinating in the multi-storey and along the very dodgy river walk. ...but at night...No thanks. Odeon gonna need shuttle buses from train station with blacked out windows...lol.[/p][/quote]yeah because Cineworld overlooking a scrap yard is a much better view huh... PCS_Wilts

10:03am Fri 7 Sep 12

upnunder says...

Any news on the size and names for the restaurant s jigsaw5 ??
Any news on the size and names for the restaurant s jigsaw5 ?? upnunder

10:04am Fri 7 Sep 12

upnunder says...

Any news on the size and names for the restaurant s jigsaw5 ??
Any news on the size and names for the restaurant s jigsaw5 ?? upnunder

10:17am Fri 7 Sep 12

upnunder says...

Mike. Can you let us in on the significance of the 3 extra documents .
Mike. Can you let us in on the significance of the 3 extra documents . upnunder

10:43am Fri 7 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

I suggest no-one reads those three documents... the contents are truly shocking and appalling.

Mike Baxter - thank you for revealing such sinister plans!
I suggest no-one reads those three documents... the contents are truly shocking and appalling. Mike Baxter - thank you for revealing such sinister plans! PCS_Wilts

10:56am Fri 7 Sep 12

upnunder says...

What does pcs mean Mike. ???. Is it serious or Is he trying to ramp it up.??
What does pcs mean Mike. ???. Is it serious or Is he trying to ramp it up.?? upnunder

11:13am Fri 7 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

Don't detract from the steps that must be taken...
Don't detract from the steps that must be taken... PCS_Wilts

11:34am Fri 7 Sep 12

Beardy Mike says...

the steps needed to find out what is going on here, might lead to a slippery slope.
the steps needed to find out what is going on here, might lead to a slippery slope. Beardy Mike

11:34am Fri 7 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

BathBadger wrote:
PCS_Wilts wrote:
BathBadger wrote:
I wonder how the Section 106 got missed with all the "close working" that went on then? It wasn't missed for Innox though and those seemed to be the sticking points.

And as for duplication, using that model, surely we only need One supermarket, one petrol station, one electrical outlet, one shoe shop etc etc for the whole town! Old ground I know, but there is the catchment and the demand. St Stephens will be good for Trowbridge, Innox will be great for West Wilts.

The perception of "camps" is one created by those who are Anti Innox. I think you'll find there are a number of people who would like both developments, with 2 cinemas, thus offering more choice, competition and keeping costs keen!
Ideally you are correct but in this situation Suitability is the key, and that is also part of the core strategy.

I don't think the 106 was missed - that's just how its being portrayed by Councillor Payne - his latest straw to grasp at - its only take 6 months for that one to click - no wonder they couldn't get plans right.
So if the 106 wasn't missed, was it waived? Why should it apply to Innox and not St Stephens?

Mike has now also alerted the 3 extra documents added to a closed application. What next?
its just a slippery slope down hill from here...
[quote][p][bold]BathBadger[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]PCS_Wilts[/bold] wrote: [quote][p][bold]BathBadger[/bold] wrote: I wonder how the Section 106 got missed with all the "close working" that went on then? It wasn't missed for Innox though and those seemed to be the sticking points. And as for duplication, using that model, surely we only need One supermarket, one petrol station, one electrical outlet, one shoe shop etc etc for the whole town! Old ground I know, but there is the catchment and the demand. St Stephens will be good for Trowbridge, Innox will be great for West Wilts. The perception of "camps" is one created by those who are Anti Innox. I think you'll find there are a number of people who would like both developments, with 2 cinemas, thus offering more choice, competition and keeping costs keen![/p][/quote]Ideally you are correct but in this situation Suitability is the key, and that is also part of the core strategy. I don't think the 106 was missed - that's just how its being portrayed by Councillor Payne - his latest straw to grasp at - its only take 6 months for that one to click - no wonder they couldn't get plans right.[/p][/quote]So if the 106 wasn't missed, was it waived? Why should it apply to Innox and not St Stephens? Mike has now also alerted the 3 extra documents added to a closed application. What next?[/p][/quote]its just a slippery slope down hill from here... PCS_Wilts

9:08pm Fri 7 Sep 12

upnunder says...

Please can mike Baxter or bath badger update us all please .??????
Please can mike Baxter or bath badger update us all please .?????? upnunder

9:20pm Fri 7 Sep 12

upnunder says...

Please can mike Baxter or bath badger update us all please .??????
Please can mike Baxter or bath badger update us all please .?????? upnunder

4:56pm Sun 9 Sep 12

jigsaw 5 says...

No names as yet on cafe or restaurants..sticky problems..we should know by now surely..we got kfc,mcdonalds,subway
,11 cafes so not many left to choose from really....can't see pizza hut coming to a little town like this....mind you Frome got pizza hut.
No names as yet on cafe or restaurants..sticky problems..we should know by now surely..we got kfc,mcdonalds,subway ,11 cafes so not many left to choose from really....can't see pizza hut coming to a little town like this....mind you Frome got pizza hut. jigsaw 5

5:10pm Sun 9 Sep 12

upnunder says...

Give it 2 weeks . You won't be disappointed .
Give it 2 weeks . You won't be disappointed . upnunder

5:10pm Sun 9 Sep 12

upnunder says...

Give it 2 weeks . You won't be disappointed .
Give it 2 weeks . You won't be disappointed . upnunder

6:44pm Sun 9 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

jigsaw 5 wrote:
No names as yet on cafe or restaurants..sticky problems..we should know by now surely..we got kfc,mcdonalds,subway

,11 cafes so not many left to choose from really....can't see pizza hut coming to a little town like this....mind you Frome got pizza hut.
LMAO - Lets just say YOU won't be disappointed but I can't speak for others ;)

Just take one thing into account with L&G - Have they or have they not been delivering everything they promised?
[quote][p][bold]jigsaw 5[/bold] wrote: No names as yet on cafe or restaurants..sticky problems..we should know by now surely..we got kfc,mcdonalds,subway ,11 cafes so not many left to choose from really....can't see pizza hut coming to a little town like this....mind you Frome got pizza hut.[/p][/quote]LMAO - Lets just say YOU won't be disappointed but I can't speak for others ;) Just take one thing into account with L&G - Have they or have they not been delivering everything they promised? PCS_Wilts

8:27pm Sun 9 Sep 12

jigsaw 5 says...

its true they said they'd have to lay off 400 people and they stuck to their word and laid off 550 instead lol. I hope it ain't Nandos, its a rip off there. Another coffee shop not needed, chip shop or chinese. so only TFI left
its true they said they'd have to lay off 400 people and they stuck to their word and laid off 550 instead lol. I hope it ain't Nandos, its a rip off there. Another coffee shop not needed, chip shop or chinese. so only TFI left jigsaw 5

8:49pm Sun 9 Sep 12

PCS_Wilts says...

jigsaw 5 wrote:
its true they said they'd have to lay off 400 people and they stuck to their word and laid off 550 instead lol. I hope it ain't Nandos, its a rip off there. Another coffee shop not needed, chip shop or chinese. so only TFI left
I get the feeling you don't actually want the town to grow within the expectations of the majority - in fact you're actually quite the pessimist aren't you...
[quote][p][bold]jigsaw 5[/bold] wrote: its true they said they'd have to lay off 400 people and they stuck to their word and laid off 550 instead lol. I hope it ain't Nandos, its a rip off there. Another coffee shop not needed, chip shop or chinese. so only TFI left[/p][/quote]I get the feeling you don't actually want the town to grow within the expectations of the majority - in fact you're actually quite the pessimist aren't you... PCS_Wilts

5:09pm Tue 11 Sep 12

jigsaw 5 says...

like everyone else, it's been promised or built then slowly disappears, so , i'll hide on the side of caution.
like everyone else, it's been promised or built then slowly disappears, so , i'll hide on the side of caution. jigsaw 5

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